Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[aieeegrunt]

Well any possibility of me pre ordering died. 3rd party DRM is literally always bad for the consumer

 

[Kwami]

Denuvo Anti-Tamper costs a lot of money to use. It is extremely common and getting implemented in more and more games.

I promise you that the bean counters at 2K and everywhere else have done their diligence and accounting in assuring that it's the most financially advantageous path to take. Any lost sales from this brief period of outrage will pale in comparison to the increased revenue from months of preventing piracy in the game's most profitable time in its shelf life.

The most critical period in a game's release is the first 2 weeks--this is where 59% of revenue over a game's entire life is generated.

If it was all about protecting the first few weeks or months of sales, then Firaxis would remove Denuvo a few months after release. As I wrote previously, Midnight Suns still has Denuvo almost two years after release and there has been no indication that Firaxis ever plans to remove it.

 

[pokiehl]

If it was all about protecting the first few weeks or months of sales, then Firaxis would remove Denuvo a few months after release. As I wrote previously, Midnight Suns still has Denuvo almost two years after release and there has been no indication that Firaxis ever plans to remove it.

It’s about protecting sales period. The first bit of time is the most important but that doesn’t mean they want to open the floodgates to piracy after the fact. Why would they?

Their analysis figures that Denuvo is still worth the cost for Midnight Suns. It’s hard for us to get any more specific. Who knows? It could even be part of a licensing requirement with Marvel.

 

[lt22677]

2K often removes Denuvo ~6 months after release, so if you refuse to install it, you may be able to out-wait it.

It's not true see Midnight Sun (Firaxis game) released in December 2022 and still now with Denuvo

 

[pokiehl]

Is your argument that 2K is infallible? And that what's best for them is also best for us? The fact that studios changed their minds show that the former is not true. And the fact that's we're on opposite sides of an economic transaction shows the latter is not true (our interest certainly partially align, but not perfectly so).

I definitely don't think either of those things, but if they care about getting ONE thing right, it's making money. I am much more confident in their ability to assess how to make money than I am in our ability to do so from here. I don't know what you mean about 'knowing what's best for us.' I don't know how to interpret that - I thought we were just talking about a publisher's business decision. I'm not trying to be more philosophical than that.

It's simple math man. Denuvo is expensive. 2K wants to make money. Therefore, their use of it suggests they're confident they'll make money with it.

 

[Fletchers_Requiem]

I was just getting ready to preorder- glad I saw this before I went ahead with it.

Very much not a fan of Denuvo- anti cheat and anti tamper programs have all had the weirdest habit of crashing my rig.

 

[pokiehl]

But we have no idea how much net profit they'll make that way. That other publishers have changed their mind in the past (and assuming they're no less competent that 2K),

The one example we have is Amplitude, who's stated excuse is that Denuvo hurt their game's performance and they couldn't fix it. Not much more to prognosticate than that I think. Do you have other examples of it being nixed before release? I can't find any and I tried.

suggests the margin one way or the other is very thin. Indeed, the same free market economics your invoking would conclude that Denuvo ought to be priced close to the break-even point to maximise Irdeto's own profits. And it also suggests that a boycott is likely to work, for exactly that reason. The observation that such boycotts have worked in the past strongly corroborate that.

I doubt it. Again, you have one example (Humankind) with a seeming actual technical reason. Gamers flip out about Denuvo all the time. Cannot emphasize that enough, but I assume this is your first time encountering this. I assure you Civ 7 is not the first and won't be the last. It's literally nonstop. Check out any other gaming community. 2K has 10000% anticipated this.

And, I don't know about you, but I care more about protecting the integrity of my PC, my data, and my long term ability to use a license I purchase than a marginal change in 2Ks bottom line. Even if Civ7 gets pirated as much as Civ6 we know they'll still make enough money to develop DLCs, expansion packs, and keep the franchise going - because that's what happened with Civ6

I think this stuff is overblown but of course respect your opinion and concerns. From my own due diligence, I don't think there's anything wrong with Anti-Tamper and it doesn't bother me. Businesses are obligated to make money, and I am a Take-Two shareholder, so I'd like them to make money too.

 

[bv98132454]

I am a Take-Two shareholder, so I'd like them to make money too.

And all of a sudden, everything made sense.

 

[pokiehl]

And all of a sudden, everything made sense.

It doesn't mean you're a rich robber baron. For context, any adult in this forum with a pension or 401(k) invested in a broad market index fund is a Take-Two shareholder. They're in the S&P 500.

 

[Gedemon]

Denuvo Anti-Tamper costs a lot of money to use. If they didn't do the math and figure it'd make them money, they wouldn't use it.

And if there is a real backlash, I mean larger than what they must have anticipated, they'll do the math again.

 

[Kwami]

And, I don't know about you, but I care more about protecting the integrity of my PC, my data, and my long term ability to use a license I purchase than a marginal change in 2Ks bottom line. Even if Civ7 gets pirated as much as Civ6 we know they'll still make enough money to develop DLCs, expansion packs, and keep the franchise going - because that's what happened with Civ6.

Exactly this!

I don't support game piracy, but I also don't support putting limitations on paying customers as a way to combat piracy. I shouldn't have to worry about whether Denuvo's servers will be online when I install or play the game. I shouldn't have to deal with activation limits. I shouldn't have to worry about what some third-party might install on my PC or about what data they're gathering from me.

2K will make enough money just by selling the game without Denuvo.

 

[pokiehl]

And if there is a real backlash, I mean larger than what they must have anticipated, they'll do the math again.

Sure, but I can’t name a single time this has happened. I don’t think Humankind is a good example.

You know, the product sheet for Denuvo even illustrates examples with games getting worse Steam reviews due to Denuvo but way more revenue than those without Denuvo.

This backlash is part of the calculus.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Greed knows no ethics....

 

[pokiehl]

Come on. It shouldn't need saying again that Denuvo is not an impartial source of information regarding Denuvo.

Well I think you selectively out the last line of that post which was closing the point that “bad reviews and backlash are part of the package and everyone knows it.”

Look, I hear your perspective on this and I respect it. I think we just fundamentally disagree here, but I do appreciate your point of view. This is a heated topic to be sure.

We’ll see what happens right? And we’ll also need to keep an eye on the Civ 7 EULA.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

It doesn't mean you're a rich robber baron. For context, any adult in this forum with a pension or 401(k) invested in a broad market index fund is a Take-Two shareholder. They're in the S&P 500.

It's easy to forget, just how intrinsically tied so many bad things going on in the world right now, are to everyone's retirement funds. It's a pretty significant reason as to why simply "voting with your wallet" is such an ineffective tactic.

 

[Brutus2]

I would like to hear from devs on this because I have also had issues with Denuvo in the past so much that even as a lifelong civ fan, this could be a deal breaker for me. I know it's supposed to stop piracy but what it really does is cause issues for the people who bought legit. My experience has been that Denuvo causes issues with offline play even if they say that you can play offline. I spent a lot of money on a steam deck to play games when I travel and I may not have wifi on a long car trip. They will tell you that you can play offline or that you only need to go online occasionally to "verify" but it always becomes a major pain in the butt.

 

[ombak]

I appreciate the way this discussion has gone here (as opposed to, say, Reddit). I don't like it overall, but in the end it's something I'll judge based on this specific case and use, not on past issues.

I will say that while I agree that companies want to make money and they will have made the calculus, I am not entirely convinced by how industries that combat piracy communicate lost revenue. (Then again, they can also communicate one way while having internal calculus that is more accurate and more properly communicated to stakeholders and leaders, but I wouldn't know that).

One thing that occurred to me is the timing of this could lead to questions about this at PAX tomorrow. That just reinforces the points that they could communicate this stuff more clearly, and should know to expect this kind of reaction.

 

[Patine]

If it's there more as anti-cheating than anti-piracy then make it optional and lock online MP behind Denuvo, but not the SP game. Is cheating in Civ that big a deal in the first place?

I definitely agree. If I want to cheat in my own single-player games in what should be the privacy of my own computer, I should have free reign to.

As I've said a couple of times now, it is the licence I have issue with and do not accept. Other people have other reasons, but the Denuvo licence is why I refuse to buy any game with it.

Mandatory installation of intrusive software, especially when the different types discussed all tend to be products of the same company, is a disturing trend. I think pushback is indeed needed.

 

[Brew God]

Hello Fellow Civ Fans,

"You vote with your wallet" - I am all in with the Founders edition on day 1 !

Brew God

 

[pokiehl]

Hello Fellow Civ Fans,

"You vote with your wallet" - I am all in with the Founders edition on day 1 !

Brew God

You and me both.