Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Logically, if the greatest sales happen in the first 3 to 6 months, then any loss of sales is also greatest in that period.

Yes, I agree with that. Did I say something that made it sound like I thought otherwise?

 

[Leyrann]

Agreed, there are nuances my blanket statement didn't catch. Although I think that in your example, that likely raises X, since making piracy more challenging would allow the company to raise X more without losing as much Y as they otherwise would.

I'm recovering from a migraine so there's a good chance I misread your X and Y and only got the gist of the argument.

 

[imperfectpeter]

If they can improve the game, that will lead to more sales, which means they turned the money into more money.

At a basic level this can be true yes, though in the case of Civ the way that occurs is through DLC so it's not exactly free of charge.

You missed the more important point though, that games without DRM and harsh anti-piracy measures are not of a lower quality than games with them. The idea that adding Denuvo will give Civ 7 better quality art is a fantasy.

 

[Patine]

Companies don't want to just bleed out money if they can prevent it, what a surprise.

And now, here's the kicker, at least for me. What selling point is, "anti-piracy protection," which I, as a single consumer don't give damn about, personal, and am not aware of piracy having sunk a single major, successful computer game title, in and of itself, that should make me endure higher prices, compromised performance, intrusive, mandatory software, online checks, and other inconveniences? The selling point to ME, not to 2K?

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Do the Civ 7 competitors Ara: History Untold and Millennia have Denuvo or a similar program, too ?

Old World, Ara and Millenia, none have Denuvo.
Old World is even available on GOG, and their offline installers make it possible to install and play without ever connecting to any (store) servers, which as far as I know is not true for any other option for any of these games.

But even then, for civ6 it's about the gameplay DLL, and this kind of implementation may be also possible with civ7 in the long term, as Denuvo will surely be linked to the exe, and as I understand there is no reason to have it implemented in the DLL side too. We'll know that quickly, as exploring the DLL is a way to replace modding documentation when it's missing, and I don't expect one at release.

When there's an exe protected by Denuvo, you expect a separate dll that is not? I don't.
We'll have to see how much modding will be possible, it will directly depend on how much modding they want to, and are able to, make available, and I doubt a dll will be part of that for the first few years.


Some earlier posts about Take-Two: That company seems to really never pay actual dividends. But they do buybacks and that is listed in the "Total dividend yield data table", so maybe you can count that as a dividend? Idk


As for that study that came out 2 weeks ago (link): It's good to finally have some hard numbers (+15 / +20% revenue on average/median) but since different titles have different audiences, which could have different pirating behaviors, the real impact could vary quite a bit, and can never truly be known.
Many people want to start playing/modding/being part of the community from the very start, and those impatient early adopters are what really drive the sales numbers. I find it not really surprising that having no piracy option for those people directly translates to more sales - some people simply get whatever is available at launch or shortly afterwards, and these people are the reason why Denuvo exists and continues to be inflicted upon us. If honest people always bought, and pirates always pirated (and on occasion bought some genuinely good games later on, but out of their free will and not because they couldn't pirate it), we would still hear the occasional "but the pirates are stealing and that reduces our revenue" but it wouldn't make so many publishers adopt such an expensive anti-temper software.
Also, I don't believe Civ7 will lose Denuvo any time soon, Anno 1800 still has it even though one version was cracked at some point, and that game was released in 2019, and has even been abandoned now, with the next installment being in development. There's a good chance we're looking at 3+ years of Denuvo here.

 

[Gedemon]

I don't think that's how game prices get set. They get set to maximize total revenues based on X price times Y sales, where these is an inverse relationship between X and Y (the higher the price X, the lower the sales Y). If anti-piracy software increases Y across the board, that doesn't affect the decision of where to set X.

It was rhetorical, I know what I am for 2K: a cash cow to be milked.

If anti-piracy software was increasing sales across the board without affecting the decision of where to set the price, that would also mean piracy lowering sales would not affect the price.

I do think it affects the price, but the other way, because 2K is in for profit, not charity, if they determine they can sell at higher price because the game can't be pirated, they'll do it, if they determine some people may chose to pirate it because the price is set to high, they may lower it.

We, honest customers are on the losing side, alongside the pirates, here, and not just even alongside in fact, but mixed from their point of view, considered like thieves when we dare to ask questions.

Honestly, for me, that part of the interview backfired badly for my opinion on Denuvo if they wanted to do some PR, if their marketing tricks works on producers, good for them, bad for us, but they really shouldn't try to tell me it's good for me AND insult me at the same time.

 

[Leyrann]

And now, here's the kicker, at least for me. What selling point is, "anti-piracy protection," which I, as a single consumer don't give damn about, personal, and am not aware of piracy having sunk a single major, successful computer game title, in and of itself, that should make me endure higher prices, compromised performance, intrusive, mandatory software, online checks, and other inconveniences? The selling point to ME, not to 2K?

That's unrelated.

Companies, in the most fundamental and selfish interpretation, care about money first and foremost. To sell something to a customer is simply a (the primary) means of earning that money. But sometimes, something makes money but doesn't have any selling points towards the customers. The decision to do something about piracy because piracy reduces sales (note: assuming this is correct, and I imagine there will be at least some truth to it even if only by virtue of the law of big numbers) is one that makes sense financially independent of whether that's actually beneficial to the customers they already have.

 

[Leyrann]

Old World, Ara and Millenia, none have Denuvo.
Old World is even available on GOG, and their offline installers make it possible to install and play without ever connecting to any (store) servers, which as far as I know is not true for any other option for any of these games.

Isn't Dale a developer for Old World?

 

[Patine]

That's unrelated.

Companies, in the most fundamental and selfish interpretation, care about money first and foremost. To sell something to a customer is simply a (the primary) means of earning that money. But sometimes, something makes money but doesn't have any selling points towards the customers. The decision to do something about piracy because piracy reduces sales (note: assuming this is correct, and I imagine there will be at least some truth to it even if only by virtue of the law of big numbers) is one that makes sense financially independent of whether that's actually beneficial to the customers they already have.

I don't care about their priorities in such areas anymore than they care about mine in kind. What I'm obviously asking is, what does Denuvo offer me to want to overlook all of these issues that concern me - whether or not they concern you? What selling point is there to me to make me swallow the pill and buy it, regardless? I'm not asking for 2K's perspective.

 

[Dale]

I will no longer be participating in this thread. Thanks guys for the discussions.

Hasn't changed my mind one bit, as per my first post in this thread, Firaxis you just lost a STAUNCH customer.

Quick edit to add:

Isn't Dale a developer for Old World?

Yes I am. I'm not a decision maker for Old World though.

 

[Shirotora Kenshin]

I will no longer be participating in this thread. Thanks guys for the discussions.

Hasn't changed my mind one bit, as per my first post in this thread, Firaxis you just lost a STAUNCH customer.

You must be blessed with a lot of patience.
If people don‘t want to understand, then they will never understand, results in endless discussions. That‘s why i‘m trying to avoid discussions like that.

Our reasons for not accepting Denuvo are certainly different, but they lost me too, but it’s of course not necessary to repeat it again.

 

[canadamufc]

I have read through this thread, and am yet to see a single convincing argument on why I as the CONSUMER should support the inclusion of Denuvo because 2k might make an extra dime off it.

There are a lot of "coulds" in this thread. They COULD use the extra $ to hire more artists. They COULD use it to improve graphics. Will they really though?

And also, wanting a fair reciprocal for the work you create is fair. But if you think that the inclusion of Denuvo is increasing developer's wages... that's not the way the world works.

 

[Gorbles]

Yes, I agree with that. Did I say something that made it sound like I thought otherwise?

I guess I was just looking for clarity! I've been on the Internet too long

 

[UWHabs]

I don't care about their priorities in such areas anymore than they care about mine in kind. What I'm obviously asking is, what does Denuvo offer me to want to overlook all of these issues that concern me - whether or not they concern you? What selling point is there to me to make me swallow the pill and buy it, regardless? I'm not asking for 2K's perspective.

I have read through this thread, and am yet to see a single convincing argument on why I as the CONSUMER should support the inclusion of Denuvo because 2k might make an extra dime off it.

There are a lot of "coulds" in this thread. They COULD use the extra $ to hire more artists. They COULD use it to improve graphics. Will they really though?

And also, wanting a fair reciprocal for the work you create is fair. But if you think that the inclusion of Denuvo is increasing developer's wages... that's not the way the world works.

Essentially, there is no "benefit" to the consumer about this, no. But it's not like civ is out there brandishing it as their top marketing point. It's listed on Steam, because Steam requires games to list any external DRM they ship with. You're not going to see a "first look" video at the new DRM. I'm sure everyone will avoid talking about it as much as they can. If Steam didn't require them to list it, I'm sure it would be hidden 6 pages deep in the EULA you click through before installing the game, and it would take people 3 years to discover the game was shipped with it.

If Civ announced they were going to scrap it and run without Denuvo, okay, sure, great. For 99.9% of users, they won't notice or care that Denuvo is included with the game, it won't have any impact on them. As a consumer, my "support" of Denuvo goes as far as seeing that it will have effectively no impact on me, and if I want to get the game, it's a piece that's included. But for me, it's not the hill I would die on. Whether scouts travel with a cat or a dog probably has a bigger impact for anyone than whether the game ships with Denuvo or not.

 

[Morningcalm]

Adding Denuvo is a terrible decision and the main reason I will not be purchasing Civ 7. I do wish Firaxis had more dialogue with its fanbase beyond just the survey they sent out some time ago that asked about reasons why we might not purchase Civ 7.

 

[Gedemon]

it's 2K decision, not Firaxis, I'm pretty sure they can't oppose it frontally, and, as I already said, I appreciate that they try to gather some sort of leverage with the survey to reverse it.

 

[Leyrann]

I don't care about their priorities in such areas anymore than they care about mine in kind. What I'm obviously asking is, what does Denuvo offer me to want to overlook all of these issues that concern me - whether or not they concern you? What selling point is there to me to make me swallow the pill and buy it, regardless? I'm not asking for 2K's perspective.

That's why I said it's unrelated. You commented on that companies no longer want to just write off piracy as expected losses. I responded that of course they don't want to do that, it's costing them money. The wishes of the customer, in this case, do not factor into the decision-making of the company. And that's the end of it. The only thing that trying to involve them anyway does is make the discussion a whole lot more confusing.

If people don‘t want to understand, then they will never understand, results in endless discussions.

Or perhaps different people have different priorities and thus come to different conclusions based on the same information, and will never agree due to those different priorities and possibly personal circumstances.

I have read through this thread, and am yet to see a single convincing argument on why I as the CONSUMER should support the inclusion of Denuvo because 2k might make an extra dime off it.

If that's what you're looking for, I don't think you're going to find it. Including Denuvo is done because it's a benefit to the company selling the product.

The question is more whether or not it's harmful to the customer, and if so, is it sufficiently harmful to decide to not buy the game even though you otherwise would?

 

[Patine]

That's why I said it's unrelated. You commented on that companies no longer want to just write off piracy as expected losses. I responded that of course they don't want to do that, it's costing them money. The wishes of the customer, in this case, do not factor into the decision-making of the company. And that's the end of it. The only thing that trying to involve them anyway does is make the discussion a whole lot more confusing.

Well, as a CONSUMER, and not the 2K corporation, Denuvo is not acceptable to ME, and is actually a third or fourth (I'm betting, but not verified, a fifth) strike, in features, against Civ7. Civ2 awaits to be returned to, and possibly also a revisitation to Civ3.

 

[Riconatic]

Adding Denuvo is a terrible decision and the main reason I will not be purchasing Civ 7. I do wish Firaxis had more dialogue with its fanbase beyond just the survey they sent out some time ago that asked about reasons why we might not purchase Civ 7.

What objective measurabale terrible things have denuvo anti tamper caused to you or in general that one can say it is terrible decision for civ 7?

 

[Leyrann]

Well, as a CONSUMER, and not the 2K corporation, Denuvo is not acceptable to ME, and is actually a third or fourth (I'm betting, but not verified, a fifth) strike, in features, against Civ7. Civ2 awaits to be returned to, and possibly also a revisitation to Civ3.

And that's fair enough, I'm not arguing with you on that.

I'm just saying that it's unrelated to 2K not wanting to write piracy off as a loss, except for the part where it touches through the inclusion of Denuvo. Your and 2K's interests are at odds, and that's that. That doesn't make it weird or bad that 2K does this, as you were implying.