Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[Shirotora Kenshin]

Or perhaps different people have different priorities and thus come to different conclusions based on the same information, and will never agree due to those different priorities and possibly personal circumstances.

Yeah, good point that needs an answer, what you say can sometimes also be the case… not every situation is the same. But often people are just not willing to understand the other side, because they simply don‘t want it. But i guess, in any case we could try to respect eachother at least, but instead you can see some people just want to „destroy“ the other side‘s arguments, their reputation and just want to „win“ the discussion at any cost.
These are the discussions that are pointless to me.
For me, a „victory“ is if we can speak about something with respecting eachother, and if at the end, both sides are not losing their face and both sides had a good conversation and more knowledge or similar than before.

Hope you understand, i know, my english sometimes… But alright, i said already enough. I‘m out of this thread. Have a nice day everybody

 

[Morningcalm]

What objective measurabale terrible things have denuvo anti tamper caused to you or in general that one can say it is terrible decision for civ 7?

It makes games perform more poorly on computers. It's widely documented. I also don't like that Firaxis just imposed it knowing of its unpopularity in other gaming spheres. They ought to have consulted their fans ahead of time first I think, even if just in the form of videos updating the community and saying something along the lines of "we are considering..."

 

[Riconatic]

It makes games perform more poorly on computers. It's widely documented. I also don't like that Firaxis just imposed it knowing of its unpopularity in other gaming spheres. They ought to have consulted their fans ahead of time first I think, even if just in the form of videos updating the community and saying something along the lines of "we are considering..."

No it does not. It is widely documented that some games perform worse and some games do not. Civ 7 is not released so we have no idea.

So this unkown cannot be basis for general claim ”terrible decission” or even personal argument.

This feature is not ”fan feature”. Fan opinion only play role in one equation. If ”denuvo hate” decreases sales more than denuvo gains from prevention of pirating. This calculation can be only done in firaxis/2k level. For fans informational purposes there is the recent study that says denuvo increases sales.

So this argument cannot be basis of general claim ”terrible decission”. However I guess can be basis of very miniscule limited scope personal claim.

 

[Naokaukodem]

No it does not. It is widely documented that some games perform worse and some games do not. Civ 7 is not released so we have no idea.

And then. Would you take the risk ? Civ7 denuvo will be documented for comparison purposes only when 2K (or someone else) removes it anyway, or if. Personally, I am more concerned by SSD damage. (sorry if already denied, didn't read the whole topic lol)

 

[Riconatic]

And then. Would you take the risk ? Civ7 denuvo will be documented for comparison purposes only when 2K (or someone else) removes it anyway, or if. Personally, I am more concerned by SSD damage. (sorry if already denied, didn't read the whole topic lol)

Risk of what? I have no risk even I preordered. When the early start begins I have information in few hours or maximum few days how this game runs on different platforms. Then I make decission to refund if my platform would run it too slow for my taste.

Generally I have zero interest if this game could run 1000fps without denuvo if my required level is 120fps. I treat game with denuvo as every other game. It needs to work decent enough for me to buy/keep it. That information will be available very soon after launch/early start.

SSD case is conspiracy theory spread wide even it was debunked early. Up today there is zero evidence and nobody can even present theory why it would hurt SSD.

 

[Morningcalm]

No it does not. It is widely documented that some games perform worse and some games do not. Civ 7 is not released so we have no idea.

So this unkown cannot be basis for general claim ”terrible decission” or even personal argument.

This feature is not ”fan feature”. Fan opinion only play role in one equation. If ”denuvo hate” decreases sales more than denuvo gains from prevention of pirating. This calculation can be only done in firaxis/2k level. For fans informational purposes there is the recent study that says denuvo increases sales.

So this argument cannot be basis of general claim ”terrible decission”. However I guess can be basis of very miniscule limited scope personal claim.

The fact that there's even a chance Civ 7 will perform more poorly is not good. Why risk it? I can understand wanting to combat piracy, but there are surely other ways that don't risk hurting the consumer's chance of actually running the game.

 

[Riconatic]

The fact that there's even a chance Civ 7 will perform more poorly is not good. Why risk it? I can understand wanting to combat piracy, but there are surely other ways that don't risk hurting the consumer's chance of actually running the game.

I obviously cannot factually answer that behalf of firaxis/2k, but maybe I can guess based on my experience in sofware business.

My guess is that as publisher 2k has lots of and years worth of experience of denuvo and developer firaxis have also experience of denuvo from their other games they do not consider it even as risk.

In all and any case it is their risk to take and considered as part of business decission.

 

[Morningcalm]

It is indeed their risk to take. It's one I won't be accepting for my own. Until and unless Denuvo is removed, I am not purchasing Civ 7.

 

[Leyrann]

It makes games perform more poorly on computers. It's widely documented.

No it's not. I read this entire thread and participated in more than half of it, and I have not seen anyone quote something more substantial than anecdotal evidence in a poorly controlled context. The closest thing to documentation that I've seen is a game that ran more smoothly after Denuvo was removed... in a patch that contained a whole host of optimization fixes. In other words, anywhere from zero to ninety-nine percent of that improvement could come from Denuvo's removal.

It is indeed their risk to take. It's one I won't be accepting for my own. Until and unless Denuvo is removed, I am not purchasing Civ 7.

You're not buying a game because it might run more poorly on your computer than it theoretically could? What if 'more poorly' is still 'good enough to play on ultra settings'? What if the fears are unfounded? Etc.

Why don't you buy the game on Steam, try it out for an hour and a half, and then refund if you dislike how well (poorly) it runs? Steam has a blanket no questions asked refund policy for any game played for less than two hours (and maybe purchased less than two weeks before requesting it?), and even if you're a bit above it you might still be able to get it although I wouldn't recommend taking the risk. Either way, you can definitely confirm whether your fears are well-founded without having to spend any money you can't get back. So, why not do that before making your decision?

 

[Gedemon]

Some devs failing to implement it correctly is factual.

but yes, we'll know by testing.

 

[UWHabs]

Some devs failing to implement it correctly is factual.

but yes, we'll know by testing.

I mean, we won't actually know by testing. People will download and run the game, and any flaw in performance I can guarantee there will be a rush of people running to this thread to blame Denuvo. Sure, if it runs flawlessly, people won't be able to blame it, but anytime a new game comes out, I never anticipate it to actually run flawlessly, there's bound to be a host of issues that usually takes devs a bit of time after launch to circle back around and clean up.

 

[Gedemon]

that's right, code can be complex, dev time is limited, there can be many performance issues unrelated to Denuvo.

And those issues can take some time to be resolved.

But if the devs can have issues with their own code, from my point of view it's normal to see the addition of foreign code that could also be the source of performance issues as an additional risk, without benefits for the players.

 

[King of Prussia]

Foreign code could be as simple as plug and play, with very little dev time needed to implement it, or a complete nightmare, where you have to do 50 different things just right or it all breaks down. I would hope and assume denuvo, or any app for that matter like it, is closer to the former and not the latter. No one likes going into other peoples code, no matter how well its noted/documented, trying to decipher what its doing. Especially if its not working correctly. Its not in either parties interest for it to be having issues. The easier to implement, the better.

 

[Gorbles]

But if the devs can have issues with their own code, from my point of view it's normal to see the addition of foreign code that could also be the source of performance issues as an additional risk, without benefits for the players.

I work on a number of codebases at my job (in varying languages), and the common theme between all of them is that they all rely on the existence of foreign code.

This isn't a downside. In both the Node.js and (server-side) Java ecosystems, it's downright encouraged. To say nothing of PHP or python.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Risk of what? I have no risk even I preordered. When the early start begins I have information in few hours or maximum few days how this game runs on different platforms. Then I make decission to refund if my platform would run it too slow for my taste.

Risk of harming your performances. Just saying, but it might take you more than two hours to see the late game performances. Otherwise you would have to let others sacrifice for you in order to find out. Well, I guess Internet is full of Jesus Christs.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Foreign code could be as simple as plug and play, with very little dev time needed to implement it, or a complete nightmare, where you have to do 50 different things just right or it all breaks down. I would hope and assume denuvo, or any app for that matter like it, is closer to the former and not the latter. No one likes going into other peoples code, no matter how well its noted/documented, trying to decipher what its doing. Especially if its not working correctly. Its not in either parties interest for it to be having issues. The easier to implement, the better.

The code which is easy to plug in, is also easy to plug out. Good DRM software involves multiple triggers and sits on important operations. For example, from what I've read about Denuvo, it encodes and decode files, which means you have to integrate it into all file reading operations.

 

[Leyrann]

Risk of harming your performances. Just saying, but it might take you more than two hours to see the late game performances. Otherwise you would have to let others sacrifice for you in order to find out. Well, I guess Internet is full of Jesus Christs.

Civilization isn't the kind of game where back-end calculations (which increase significantly across a full playthrough) are likely to be a bigger burden on performance than things like graphics (which stay the same in terms of load).

 

[Naokaukodem]

Civilization isn't the kind of game where back-end calculations (which increase significantly across a full playthrough) are likely to be a bigger burden on performance than things like graphics (which stay the same in terms of load).

Graphics become more complex as the game progresses, because the map is becoming full of features that take resources to be there, not counting on buildings being more complex than virgin grassland for example. As to the back-end calculations, they have a great impact on the AI turn time and also on back-and-forth scrolling during that turn, if any, and on the map size and number of factions you can hope to play depending on your computer power.

 

[Morningcalm]

You're not buying a game because it might run more poorly on your computer than it theoretically could? What if 'more poorly' is still 'good enough to play on ultra settings'? What if the fears are unfounded? Etc.

Why don't you buy the game on Steam, try it out for an hour and a half, and then refund if you dislike how well (poorly) it runs? Steam has a blanket no questions asked refund policy for any game played for less than two hours (and maybe purchased less than two weeks before requesting it?), and even if you're a bit above it you might still be able to get it although I wouldn't recommend taking the risk. Either way, you can definitely confirm whether your fears are well-founded without having to spend any money you can't get back. So, why not do that before making your decision?

I'm not buying the game when it releases (if it does, with Denuvo) because it is popularly known what Denuvo does to a PC (you can argue all day long about correlation, and cherrypicking, but it's still a known risk). The use of Denuvo also exemplifies corporate mistrust of consumers. Protectionism at the cost of the player-friendly. I get that it can be anti-piracy or whatever, but I don't think it's worth the risk.

I refuse to buy a game on Steam and try it out only to refund it. Not only does that waste time (installations of large games take a while), but the stress of figuring if a game actually will run properly within such a contained timeframe isn't worthwhile. I'll just play the demo if they release one, or watch YouTube streamers play the game. I make my decisions carefully. I don't risk money until I am confident it will be worthwhile. Right now, I'm not that confident. Firaxis hasn't demonstrated for this iteration of Civ the kind of consumer-centric communication that I liked seeing with Civ 6 (particularly with their later DLC and updates). I hope they will communicate with the fanbase better on Denuvo in the future spelling out better why they are still keeping with it (if they do) and considerations for removing it (if they still are considering removing it). But until such time I will enjoy the Civ 7 elements of music and art and historical representation that I like.

 

[Riconatic]

I'm not buying the game when it releases (if it does, with Denuvo) because it is popularly known what Denuvo does to a PC <SNIPPED QUOTE>

Yes. It is very well known what Denuvo anti-tamper does to PC. That is absolutely nothing.