Civilization Elimination II

[Arakhor]

America's out, Tailless

 

[W|M]

I even posted that before the massive post. Also, Lawrence of Arabia.

Arabia +1
Ottomans -2

 

[ilduce349]

Better ships, perhaps, better admirals, debatable, more ships, definitely not. The United States massively outproduce Japan and would win the war by sheer industrial might whatever the Japanese do.

In 1942 Japan had a larger navy then America. Due to the crushing defeat in Midway, America over took, and then remained superior. However midway was Americas second largest navy base in the Pacific. Had the Japanese won, they could have landed a direct assault in Hawaii and successfully invade. However they lost despite have twice the fleet size of the Americans.

The Bombers got lost, and by pure luck managed to show up at a time when they were refueling and reloading. Yes, I'll give it to you that they kind of won by luck here, and there were certainly several more places where the Americans and British won by luck. But, generally, it was less "luck" and more "The Axis powers were ********." Seriously, just look at some of their tactics and military actions. They could have been beaten by a Chieftain-level Civilization AI, for christ's sake.

I agree, the military planning by the Germans was poor, they had high class generals, the smartest people in the world debating military tactics but Hitler gave poor planning.
The Dunkirk disaster, (All hitlers generals suggested using the panzers), the landing at Normandy (hitler decided it would be smarter to have the elite infantry, and the tanks stationed in Paris, so that they could send them to the front line once they new where the front line was) If the tanks were spread out among to cities near the front, they would have destroyed the Americans before they had the chance to land successfully. However, to my knowledge the Japanese didn't have really big ups that lost them the war (besides Pearl Harbor and Midway)

Japan defeated Russia three decades before the outbreak of World War II, and it wasn't a complete victory (Portsmouth was a negotiated peace, not a Russian surrender). In the 1930s, the Japanese lost two battles to the Soviets in Mongolia and they didn't dare challenge them again for the entirety of World War II, and in 1945 the Soviet Union totally pwned the Kwantung Army and captured all of Manchuria and North Korea within days.

Anyone could beat the French, but then, the Japanese didn't expel the French from Indochina until the start of 1945, because they didn't had the resources to govern the territory. So while they had military access they continue to use Vichy French administrators. At the time, France was already defeated and only a small force remained to protect Indochina, so a Japanese military victory was predictable.

Same with the Dutch - the Netherlands was already defeated and their colonies were vulnerable.

The IJA seized coastal China in 1937 in a blitzkrieg and then stopped. Or were forced to stop. They couldn't beat the Chinese, who held out against the Japanese in rough terrain with sheer manpower, using guerrila tactics to harass the Japanese forces.

The Japanese campaign against the British was impressive, but it was unlikely they could ever take Australia. Or India. Which were what really counted if they want to force a peace treaty on the Allies.

There was a battle on Sahkalin Island during Operation Barbarossa, peace was negotiated because both Japan and Russia needed it.

Japan defeated Russia three decades before the outbreak of World War II, and it wasn't a complete victory (Portsmouth was a negotiated peace, not a Russian surrender). In the 1930s, the Japanese lost two battles to the Soviets in Mongolia and they didn't dare challenge them again for the entirety of World War II, and in 1945 the Soviet Union totally pwned the Kwantung Army and captured all of Manchuria and North Korea within days.

Anyone could beat the French, but then, the Japanese didn't expel the French from Indochina until the start of 1945, because they didn't had the resources to govern the territory. So while they had military access they continue to use Vichy French administrators. At the time, France was already defeated and only a small force remained to protect Indochina, so a Japanese military victory was predictable.

Same with the Dutch - the Netherlands was already defeated and their colonies were vulnerable.

The IJA seized coastal China in 1937 in a blitzkrieg and then stopped. Or were forced to stop. They couldn't beat the Chinese, who held out against the Japanese in rough terrain with sheer manpower, using guerrila tactics to harass the Japanese forces.

The Japanese campaign against the British was impressive, but it was unlikely they could ever take Australia. Or India. Which were what really counted if they want to force a peace treaty on the Allies.

The Chinese were loosing the war when Japan attack America. Despite everything that happened it was the right thing to do. If they won midway (which choxorn has admitted was pure luck) japan would have had a lager navy the America, of course japan would have also been fighting Britian. But there is a reason that America didn't even look at Germany until 2 months after midway (Even America didn't have the resources to fight a war on two fronts). Once the Americans had a larger navy then Japan, they where confident of victory, and started attacking Germany for the first time.

They'd still lose. Like they lost North Africa. The Soviet Union had everything on their side - time, geography, manpower, industry, oil, allies, less-insane leaders...

They lost North Africa because of wholes in the U-Boat line made by the American navy, who, if they lost at midway, would have been in the pacific (wether they would be floating or sinking is debatable). Op Barb would have been a success if Hitler:
1. Attacked a week early
2. Left Kiev alone and went straight to Moscow (Moscow had less then 10000 soldiers at the time, the 20000ish tanks that could have reached Moscow a week BEFORE Russian reinforcements would have been enough to take the city and secure it to repel Russian reinforcements.)
I also admit that Hitler was an Author, not a painter, not a military strategist, not a leader. HE WAS AN AUTHOR (the best selling German novel in the late 20s was probably his only successful accomplishment)

No they wouldn't. The United States would just build more ships and retake all the islands and then nuke Japan to finish it off. It'd just be a little later than scheduled.

Problem was bombing range. Midway is based strategically in the center of the Pacific. It was Americas only air and naval base that allowed access to bombing Japans islands. If Japan captured it, the Americans would have been forced into a defensive war, and japan could have fought in Hawaii with the advantage of numbers around a few weeks later. If they won that, the pacific fleet would have been completely destroyed, and Japan could continue bombarding Americas shipyards, It would have been impossible for America to land any successful attack on japan, and IF the nuke was invented in 1945, Japan would have negotiated peace on equal ground. (lets not forget quite a few of the people working on the Manhattan project were German).

 

[Zack]

ilduce, take it somewhere else or your votes will no longer count.

 

[Arakhor]

Britain +1
Egypt -2

The Suez Canal is ours!

 

[MathNerd]

Rome +
Arabia -

 

[arya126]

japan -2
+1 britain

Ilduce, you are wrong on so many points, but i will not post on them since zack has said for you not to continue.

 

[Mango Elephant]

Japan - 2

China + 1

Down with the island dwarves!

 

[Cull]

China +
Japan -

Go go go Inland Dwarves!

 

[choxorn]

Zack, can you post the numbers again?

 

[Zack]

The Scoreboard

Arabia - 8
Britain - 7
Celts - 5
China - 9
Egypt - 4
Germany - 9
Greece - 8
Inca - 10
Japan - 1
Maya - 8
Ottoman - 8
Persia - 7
Rome - 11
Spain - 9
Sumer - 6

Dead Civilizations - in order of first to last to be eliminated

Holy Roman Empire
Ethiopia
Zulu
Byzantium
Mali
France
Portugal
Netherlands
Babylon
Native America
India
Viking
Korea
Carthage
Aztec
Russia
Khmer
Mongolia
America

 

[Bobbtjoe]

Britain +1
Japan -1

JAPAN IS DEAD!

Since I have 1 other minus left...

Celt-1

 

[ilduce349]

Its clear that the only reason why Japan lost was because of my post claiming they should have won ww2, oh well.

 

[MathNerd]

Are you allowed to split your minus even if you don't kill a Civ?

 

[Arakhor]

No, you can't. You only apply one minus, whether it needs -1 or -2 to kill them.

 

[Turquoiside]

What happened to Japan?

+ Sumer

- Britain

 

[Bobbtjoe]

No, you can't. You only apply one minus, whether it needs -1 or -2 to kill them.

That was never said by Zack

 

[Arakhor]

Where did he say you could split your minuses though?

 

[Bobbtjoe]

Where did he say you could split your minuses though?

Nowhere. But of course, that doesn't mean to can give out possibly false information. And besides, the only reason I did it was because Japan only had 1 point left. There would be no way for me to destroy Japan and still create a net loss without splitting my minuses.

 

[Arakhor]

In these games, it's usually best to assume that you can't do something unless otherwise specified.