Civilization elimination thread

Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 21
Byzantium 20
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 8
England 19
Ethiopia 16
France 11
Greece 22
Inca 26 +1
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 27
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 22
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 17
Songhai 1 -2
Sweden 7

Inca is very strong civ overall, and i love being able to do so well in normally tough terrain.
Songhai is just meh...nothing really makes me ever want to play them as they need specific settings to shine (raging barbs)...
 
Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 21
Byzantium 20
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 8
England 19
Ethiopia 16
France 11
Greece 23
Inca 26
Iroquois 6
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 27
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 22
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 17
Songhai 1
Sweden 7
 
Dude you always minus the Iroquois and have not once given a reason for any of your votes.
 
Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 21
Byzantium 20
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 8
England 19
Ethiopia 16
France 11
Greece 23
Inca 26
Iroquois 7
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 27
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 22
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 17
Songhai 1
Sweden 5

Still propping up the Iroquois.

I took from the Swedes this time. I'm just not a fan of the UA. I don't like giving other civs a bonus in order to receive my own bonus.
 
Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 21
Byzantium 20
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 8
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 11
Greece 23
Inca 26
Iroquois 7
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 27
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 22
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 17
Songhai 1
Sweden 3

- to Sweden. I appreciate their unique playstlye. Of the remaining Civs theirs is truly unique. At a later stage I can see toying around with them again. With that being said, they are one of the Civs that if I rolled them, I would restart. Add in that as an opponent they haven't done much (very recent exception where they are wonder spamming colossus) in my games and they get the down vote.

Up vote to one I haven't played yet. Can't wait to get my hands on a 3 range unit early. I anticipate that at this stage in the game I'll focus purely on longbow production. SoL looks tremendous, and given my love for naval warfare in V its a great match. Getting an additional spy is another plus as I always want more spys. Two units I'd love to try, plus an additional spy. Can't pass that up.


This is going to get interesting as soon as the next two cuts are made. Seen some great arguments for multiple sides. Those saying France is missing something have my ear, as well as those who are defending Iroquois.
 
Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 21
Byzantium 20
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 8
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 11
Greece 23
Inca 26
Iroquois 8 (+1)
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 27
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 22
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 17
Songhai 1
Sweden 1 (-2)

Iroquois - playing on prince/king they are most common runaway civ, also perfect synergy of UA, UU and UB.
Sweden - it's more easy to be friends in G&K but anyway it's too much dependent of NPC action. Also I dislike civs with two UU.
 
Korea with 4 cities all with amphitheaters running just that 1 artist specialist or markets running the 1 merchant specialist each will match Babylon's early academy BPT. Since amphitheater's and markets are both on the way to education, once Korea has both these buildings in 4 cities they will exceed Babylon's BPT and likely get to education first. Then once the universities are up, switching those 2 specialists to the universities and even though Babylon will produce a few extra GS's, Korea will still be in the tech lead. This in turn means Korea will be getting their other science buildings unlocked sooner, which will further increase the gap.

Then there's the tech boost when building science buildings in the capital. The smart player will make sure those buildings are up in the 2-4th cities first and maximize their BPT for the 8 turns prior to the capital completing its science building.

With Korea, you don't want to fill all your specialist slots all the time. Only fill them with a tech boost from building a science building in the capital, a RA is nearing completion or for the 8 turns prior to your bulb fest in the end game. The rest of the time only run your scientists for the GS generation and so you can grow the cities. The side benefit is more gold and culture so you can afford the RAs and get your SP's faster.
So Korea can get four cities up and build amphitheaters or markets in all four by the time they research writing? Maybe I should start playing Korea more often.
 
Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22 (+1)
Byzantium 20
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 8
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 11
Greece 23
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25 (-2)
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 22
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 17
Songhai 1
Sweden 1

The :c5science: bonus Babylon gets is adaptable to any strategy in the game. getting the bonus research early means that you can pull ahead of the pack and never look back. By the time other civs are just getting in stride (like Korea starting to run specialists or Arabia starting to get their UB), Babylon is already 3-4 techs ahead and continuing to pick up speed. Good for all victory conditions and play styles.

Maya is weak because the extra great people are not free. At first glance, it looks cool to get great people to pop automatically from the long count, but you are forced to take great people you don't necessarily want and the cost of future great people increases with each "free" one generated by the long count. In the long run, it is more of a unique penalty.
 
@shadowplay: No motivation no count. One post was skipped that downrated the Iroquois, so their current amount remains.

Fixed scores at the moment:

Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 20
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 8
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 11
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 22
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 1
 
Greece should be 23. It was voted up to 22 in post 417 and then to 23 in post 422.
 
There were some gripes about the Babylon UU and UB and I would like to share my thoughts about it. I agree that they are only good for the classic era, but consider this - Babylon was founded around 3500 BC and was destroyed around 140 BC. Well, that does not give the developers much to go around does it? You can hardly expect a Mothership for a civ that was destroyed/assimilated by others before Christ was born... I think this fact should be taken into account.
 
Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 18 (-2)
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 8
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 11
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23 (+1)
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 1

+: Netherlands. The money you can swim in while playing as the Dutch allows for many different playstyles. They also have one of the strongest navies in the game once you get to the Sea Beggars (Trumped only by the British and Ottomans, early game sure Carthage and Byzantium are better but...) and the polder, on Desert-heavy maps, is just insane.

-: Byzanthium. While they have one of the best leader screens, especially at higher difficulties its insanely hard to take proper use of that at first glance impressive UA. If they had a faith-producing UB or something early game (like Ethiopia's Stele), then sure, but as it is now they're just...meh. Their UU's aren't particulary great either. Sure Dromon is nice but it doesn't pack enough oomph for long enough, and Cataphract is just...meh.
 
You might be right. The UA of Babylon is helpful IF you want a science victory. Sometimes I prefer gold rather than a boost in science....or maybe last time I played with Babylon I just don't know how to benefit from the GS given.
If you want more :c5gold:, it helps to get markets and banks up earlier. This is only possible if you research the necessary technology earlier.

Are you using the GS at Writing to bulb a technology? This would not give you nearly the same benefit as planting the GS as an Academy outside your capital (or chosen science focused city...i.e. near a mountain and/or with a lot of :c5food: available). You get +8 :c5science: immediately which will compound every turn for the entire game. That bonus :c5science: will become up to +10 to +18 with future social policies and be modified by buildings such as the National College, Observatory, etc. The free GS is the gift that keeps on giving. Getting it as early as Writing means that you can effectively pull ahead in the tech race at a very early point in the game.

The only thing to consider is when to stop planting Academies and when to start using the extra GS to bulb techs. This is generally sometime in the late Renaissance to early Industrial era. The timing depends on game conditions and strategy/goals of the game. At some point, you will receive more benefit from the instant bulb than you will from having an additional Academy over time. Sometimes, the instant benefit is better to have as well (i.e. to unlock a key wonder or a new military unit).
 
Arabia 28
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 18
Carthage 22
China 24
Egypt 6 (-2)
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 12 (+1)
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 1

France are a good, solid all-rounder Civ who are my go-to when upping difficulty level. They might not be the best or the most fun Civ in the game to play, but they are one of the most balanced.

Egypt... what can I say? I didn't really want to downvote them as the wonder production bonus is utterly awesome, but even that doesn't make up for Burial Tombs and War Chariots. Also, the personality of AI Ramesses is one of the most infuriating.

I'm shocked that Sweden are on the verge of going out this early, but I'm not going to upvote them as I've never played as them.
 
Arabia 26 (-2)
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 18
Carthage 23 (+1)
China 24
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 12
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 1

Carthage, same as everything I've said before, too much going for them, with my favorite being the free harbors for early production and trade routes.

Arabia gets my down vote today just because they are easy mode. It's a nice security blanket when moving up, but using them almost feels like cheating and playing with them is playing with an endless lux and gold mine from which to harvest, as they tend to play nice.
 
Arabia 26
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 16 (-2)
Carthage 23
China 24
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13 (+1)
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 1

Byzanthium: sure, the chick's good looking, but what is a bonus enhancer worth when you can't reliably produce faith?
France: upvoting them again, I feel there are far weaker civs still on-board. 20% attack bonus in foreign land! This comes usually right at the time to puppet my closest neighbour and it's steamrolling against rifleman or great war infantry.
Sure if you are mostly turtling at higher difficulties with a Tall bias, the UA is kind of underwhelming but it will make you expand and grab policies much quicker in the first 60 turns.
 
Arabia 24 (-2) they just don't fit my play style.
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 16
Carthage 23
China 24
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 2 (+1) they are a good civ that are pretty versatile in the renaissance to industrial age
 
I don't exactly mean a culture bonus that starts in the medieval age literally but one that would really start working at its most powerful at that time (at perhaps approximately that 500 AD date you gave for the unification of France). For instance, Korea kicks in at the late medieval/early rennaissance when you get universities up, or Babylon, which begins working at writing, but really kicks in when you get universities. That's just an example, though.

Well, I didn't mean necessarily that French should completely eclipse its conquest capabilities, but that the current mixture of TWO unique units instead of one unit and a unique culture building doesn't really reflect its legacy as a cultural power (I'm thinking primarily of the art created during the Impressionism/Post-Impressionism era, which fits I think very well with great artists). Perhaps a mixture of culture and war makes the most sense somehow?

What I find off is that both UUs are gunpowder units, and for most of its period of military supremacy, France relied most heavily on superior cavalry, not gunpowder infantry. The Musketeer's fair enough for all that it owes more to Dumas than to history, but the Foreign Legion is a bizarre choice of UU.

Of course with a civ like France or China the developers are always going to have to make some arbitrary choices - these are countries with a very long continuous history (France is the oldest country in Europe), and without a single discrete 'golden age' that can be identified (unlike other long-lasting countries like Persia, or historically important countries that have only been resurrected in the modern era - such as Greece).

Maya is weak because the extra great people are not free. At first glance, it looks cool to get great people to pop automatically from the long count, but you are forced to take great people you don't necessarily want and the cost of future great people increases with each "free" one generated by the long count. In the long run, it is more of a unique penalty.

Great People you generate normally - or from Pisa or Porcelain Tower, come to that - aren't free either. Does the Babylonian GS now increase future GP points? There's no penalty to the Maya UA - you get exactly the same increase in GP cost you would from generating 5 GPs (Admirals and Generals don't increase the GP point count) normally, you just do so more quickly. And there's nothing weak about a civ that gets an Academy a couple of turns after Theology - look how favoured Babylon is for getting the same deal a couple of techs earlier, and without following that up with well-timed GEs or Great Prophets, or the science boost from Pyramids. The only limitation is that you have to select GPs that may not be optimal for your strategy in place of later GPs that might be better, but that's not a restriction that makes the Maya weak - it's one that stops them from being too powerful.

I took from the Swedes this time. I'm just not a fan of the UA. I don't like giving other civs a bonus in order to receive my own bonus.

Bear in mind that a 10% bonus on GP production is meaningless to an AI opponent - AIs never use specialists and don't know how to efficiently generate GPs, so they only tend to gain GPs through Wonders or through gradual accumulation of GP points from Wonders. Also, in a multiplayer game with allies, or single-player with reliable friends, you may well want to give the other civ a bonus that will give them an edge over your rivals without giving them an edge over you (since they only ever get 10%, while the bonus is cumulative for you).

Arabia 22
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 16
Carthage 23
China 24
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 3

Sweden: As others have noted, this civ doesn't deserve to go this early. Nor does Songhai, but although they're a long-time favourite of mine, I have to admit that Sweden has a more interesting play style. I like diplo civs, and Sweden is, as others have noted, truly unique in the way it approaches this type of game.

Arabia: I'm a little wary of downvoting a civ I haven't played, but I do object in principle to ranking a civ highly based on a UB that only works because of bad AI programming. If the game is patched so that AIs either have less free gold or are less willing to spend it, Arabia's fortunes will go right down because, despite a good UU, its UA is not that impressive. A civ that's so dependent on programming quirks - and that is essentially useless in multiplayer - certainly doesn't deserve a place close to the top.
 
the foreign legion isn't that bizarre as that is one of the things there most known for these days you here more about the French Foreign Legion then say the Spanish Foreign Legion its just gotten more media hype than almost anything else about the country with the possible exception of the musketeer.
 
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