Civilization elimination thread

[DGDobrev]

The Iroquious have always been good friends and good RA partners. Even if I would be sad too see them go, we are searching for the ultimate civ to beat Deity (note - IMHO!!!), and do well against AI players and human ones as well

 

[Algeroth]

Nope, we are searching for the most favourite civ, and everybody uses different guidelines how to determine it.

 

[woodshadows]

The Iroquois love to rush me in every game I play, I dislike their civ colour and playing as them feels really really boring. I don't understand people who say playing as them is so great defensively, why because you have forest which impede enemy movement? Sure, it slows down the carpet of doom creeping towards you, but it also provide defensive terrain bonuses in doing so. I see some tactical advantage in being able to move around and through your own forests, but I'd far rather have Japan's Bushido, Ethiopias 20% or China's GG bonus while being invaded. Resourceless mohawks are nice, until/unless you don't manage to secure iron for the next upgrade, leaving you for medieval with a force of classical units until you can hit gunpowder.

 

[JetStream]

Arabia 29
Babylon 29
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 9
Greece 3
Inca 28
Iroquois 1
Korea 27
Maya 18
Netherlands 21
Persia 22
Roman Empire 11
Russia 7
Siam 16

-2 For Greece since When a Religion and Policy pretty much negates yours Unique Ability you only have early UU to fall back to. which is not that great compared to the rest of the remaining Civs on this list.

+1 to Korea, When you can turtle your way to a science win, A massive OP unit with Hwacha then you can pretty much decide on how you want to end the game.

 

[PhilBowles]

Arabia 29
Babylon 29
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 9
Greece 1
Inca 28
Iroquois 1
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 21
Persia 22
Roman Empire 11
Russia 7
Siam 16

I'll help to finish off Greece - a UA that becomes only mediocre when buffed with specific religion and patronage selections and which, in isolation, can be duplicated by any civ that takes the Patronage opener as mentioned in another post. There's nothing bad that can be said about Companion Cavalry, and the AI can actually use them well, but the Hoplite is getting a deserved mark-down on the units thread.

I'm less a fan of the Maya than I was but will support them just to counter the one poster with a targeted vendetta against them. The "liability" is being massively overstated - you may have one or two GPs you don't need who will count against your GP score, but not only is one "wasted" GP trivial as a disadvantage, you can put this off until very late in the game, and so it really does nothing to slow targeted GP production. Your first picks will almost always be Scientist, Engineer and Prophet in that or a slightly different order, possibly next with General who doesn't add to the GP cost. And it's the first two or three GPs, which come early, which make the difference - merely having the game's only UA that provides both a GS and a GE makes Maya a powerhouse. And of course you tech very early - you can have the equivalent of the Babylonian academy in Pyramids very soon after Babylon will be raking in its early benefit, and you get your own only slightly later Academy to augment it (plus the Liberty finisher GP for a potential second, in a policy tree that doesn't favour Babylon's strategy). You don't need to play superwide to get the most out of the Maya. All of which gets you to specialist techs sooner than the competition, which starts you generating GP points sooner than the competition, which means that despite the eventual late-game inflation in GP cost you've come some way to compensating for it, since you'll be generating more GPs at an earlier game stage and so, relatively speaking, delaying the cost inflation to a point where it becomes irrelevant. Really, the argument that the cost increase is a liability is as facile as arguing that Babylon's UA is a liability because 50% quicker generation of Great Scientists means you inflate the cost for future Great Scientists more rapidly than other civs. On balance you still end up producing more of them than you would otherwise - and, more importantly, producing them earlier.

The Theology beeline is not critical, and is probably least critical on higher difficulty levels where the game won't usually go on long enough for the long count cycle to begin anew (which in my experience of reaching 2012 as the Maya - which I had to play to after the game had already been won, science victory naturally - doesn't seem to happen. Though maybe if I'd played till 2013 I'd have got a new GP?). What's more, if you really don't want all seven GPs, what do you lose by going for Theology late and risking missing a 7th "useless" merchant or whatever? Nothing in the Maya UA says you have to take Theology in time to get all the GPs if you don't want to - indeed the fact that it takes a specific tech to kick in can be seen as a point in its favour by giving you more control over whether and when you suffer the 'drawback'. In any case, beelining Theology while you expand and build Pyramids, and get a GS Academy a couple of turns after reaching Theology, means that you go through the rest of those early techs you want very, very quickly. The only irritation I've tended to find is the need for The Wheel fairly early, so the Atlatlist doesn't really save you the need to research Archery for very long.

 

[Ricard.Bossle]

Arabia 29
Babylon 29
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 9
Greece 1
Inca 28
Iroquois 0
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 21
Persia 22
Roman Empire 12
Russia 7
Siam 16

 

[Mesix]

I'm less a fan of the Maya than I was but will support them just to counter the one poster with a targeted vendetta against them. The "liability" is being massively overstated - you may have one or two GPs you don't need who will count against your GP score, but not only is one "wasted" GP trivial as a disadvantage, you can put this off until very late in the game, and so it really does nothing to slow targeted GP production. Your first picks will almost always be Scientist, Engineer and Prophet in that or a slightly different order, possibly next with General who doesn't add to the GP cost. And it's the first two or three GPs, which come early, which make the difference - merely having the game's only UA that provides both a GS and a GE makes Maya a powerhouse.

The Theology beeline is not critical, and is probably least critical on higher difficulty levels where the game won't usually go on long enough for the long count cycle to begin anew (which in my experience of reaching 2012 as the Maya - which I had to play to after the game had already been one - doesn't seem to happen. Though maybe if I'd played till 2013 I'd have got a new GP?). What's more, if you really don't want all seven GPs, what do you lose by going for Theology late and risking missing a 7th "useless" merchant or whatever? Nothing in the Maya UA says you have to take Theology in time to get all the GPs if you don't want to - indeed the fact that it takes a specific tech to kick in can be seen as a point in its favour by giving you more control over whether and when you suffer the 'drawback'.

The only caveat to this is that you will likely have to settle for a GA or GM as your first (preTheology) great person. You can't target an early GS, because scientist specialists are not available until you build Universities after you research Education (which is after you research Theology). You can get an Amphitheater or a Market early to run an artist or a merchant. If you are playing for a cultural victory, then the early GA (to settle as a Landmark) followed by 2-3 different great people from the Long Count might work out okay. It just lacks the flexibility to shape your destiny the way other UA (like for example Babylon's much earlier and truely free GS) allow you to.

 

[Leviat]

Please give reasons. I am really loving the information everyone gives in this thread, and have had alot of fun trying some of these higher and lower civs. Never would of tried them.

Those are not my votes. Blue is for corrections, the post I was correcting missed the two preceding votes.

 

[Karmah]

Arabia 29
Babylon 29
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 9
Greece 0
Inca 28
Iroquois 0
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 21
Persia 22
Roman Empire 1
Russia 7
Siam 17

Greece : i m not really a fan , rest in peace.
Siam : Quite some versatility in their UA (maybe not so much for domination but still) , UB and UU are pretty nice , siam gets my vote for today.

 

[PhilBowles]

The only caveat to this is that you will likely have to settle for a GA or GM as your first (preTheology) great person. You can't target an early GS, because scientist specialists are not available until you build Universities after you research Education (which is after you research Theology). You can get an Amphitheater or a Market early to run an artist or a merchant. If you are playing for a cultural victory, then the early GA (to settle as a Landmark) followed by 2-3 different great people from the Long Count might work out okay. It just lacks the flexibility to shape your destiny the way other UA (like for example Babylon's much earlier and truely free GS) allow you to.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here - why would I produce a pre-Theology GP if I don't want to? If I want the culture bonus from amphitheaters (as I often do), what's to stop me putting the specialist in for a few turns to farm culture and then taking him out before enough GA points accumulate to produce an Artist? This is particularly easy in a wide empire, since I can just manage my specialists by removing one from an amphitheater in one city and replacing it with a specialist in another amphitheater in a city with fewer accumulated GA points. Few of the Wonders I like to aim for produce Artist points (except Pisa), and on Deity and playing wide it's hard to get Wonders anyway (unless you happen to have a "free" Engineer, of course), so there's limited 'accidental' accumulation of GPs. The Theology beeline obviously puts you in a good position to take Education quickly - it doesn't have to be the next tech (and often won't be as I'll usually go back along the earlier tech paths I missed), but I'll generally still get it ahead of the competition.

I still see little flexibility in Babylon - if you're really only playing it for the free 1st GS, it really pales in comparison to the science boost you get from a 4+-city Maya play, which brings a continuous beaker boost to the table earlier than Korea. The major part of the Babylonian UA is the 50% bonus on GP production (which, much like the Maya UA, provides a benefit that inflates the cost of later GPs more than you would otherwise - the key advantage for both is that you get the GPs you need earlier), which demands a generally specific playstyle. It's simply bizarre to suggest that a UA that allows you to choose not only the order in which it provides its advantages but also the timing when you start to reap the benefits lacks flexibiity.

EDIT: You responded too quickly - I elaborated on the post you responded to with edits while you were typing your response.

 

[Loucypher]

Arabia 29
Babylon 29
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 7 -2
Inca 28
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 22 +1
Persia 22
Roman Empire 1
Russia 7
Siam 17

Upvoting Holland once more. They're just a ton of fun to play when you're swimming in oodles of money. And the most colorful too, thanks to those beautiful polders post economics.
Downvoting Ethiopia. It's just a bit dull to play with. The Mehal Safari + their innate combat bonus is cool and all, but...it just doesn't promote any fun playstyles.

 

[Leviat]

Arabia 29
Babylon 29
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 7
Greece 0
Inca 28
Iroquois 0
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 22
Persia 22
Roman Empire 1
Russia 7
Siam 17

Greece : i m not really a fan , rest in peace.
Siam : Quite some versatility in their UA (maybe not so much for domination but still) , UB and UU are pretty nice , siam gets my vote for today.

Karmah, you get another downvote because Greece was already dead- post #734 only took 1 pt off greece. So, technically they died before the Iroquois

Arabia 29
Babylon 30
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 9
Inca 28
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 21
Persia 22
Roman Empire 12
Russia 7
Siam 17

Without The Iroquois to keep alive, Babylon gets my vote. As has been discussed, getting an academy early is huge. And then they produce GS at a +50% rate for the rest of the game, so you will get many more.
Reason I am upping them instead of Korea is that Babylon gets the early game advantage, and the early game is when I have trouble with the AI's large bonuses, even though Korea will eventually have more bpt. Close though, since Korea's UUs are better than Babylon's UU/UB combo.

Down with Carthage. Free harbor's are pretty good but the mountain crossing hasnt been helpful to me, seems more of a gimmick. UUs aren't bad but not game-changing.

 

[PhilBowles]

Arabia 29
Babylon 29
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 7 -2
Inca 28
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 22 +1
Persia 22
Roman Empire 1
Russia 7
Siam 17

Upvoting Holland once more. They're just a ton of fun to play when you're swimming in oodles of money. And the most colorful too, thanks to those beautiful polders post economics.
Downvoting Ethiopia. It's just a bit dull to play with. The Mehal Safari + their innate combat bonus is cool and all, but...it just doesn't promote any fun playstyles.

I'm starting to feel the same way. Ethiopia can be a fun 'storytelling' civ when you recount tales after the game of how it struggled against adversity and survived, but it's a bit of a slog during the game itself. I've now had too many stalemate wars where I simply won't die, yet can't make progress against AI unit spam.

I'm also not really seeing Ethiopia as a cultural civ - all it gives in culture is +1 culture per monument, and that doesn't translate to a major advantage even in the early game if you're playing tall. It has a UA that relies on combat to be effective, and cheap riflemen that seemingly want to be spammed (why give a unit a cost reduction if your purpose is to stay on the defensive with the small number of units you need to defend cities?), and the capital bonus extends quite a long way, often far enough to be an advantage against close neighbours. I think Ethiopia is probably an underrated domination civ - take and raze enemy cities early while you have the bonus; by the time your rival has fewer cities than you, he's probably in a position where your losing the 20% combat bonus you used to take his early cities isn't going to help him. Hit early with a bonus that makes Statue of Zeus look weak and burn out later, like the Huns only moreso. Rinse and repeat against every remaining larger power.

 

[Mesix]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here - why would I produce a pre-Theology GP if I don't want to? If I want the culture bonus from amphitheaters (as I often do), what's to stop me putting the specialist in for a few turns to farm culture and then taking him out before enough GA points accumulate to produce an Artist? This is particularly easy in a wide empire, since I can just manage my specialists by removing one from an amphitheater in one city and replacing it with a specialist in another amphitheater in a city with fewer accumulated GA points. Few of the Wonders I like to aim for produce Artist points (except Pisa), and on Deity and playing wide it's hard to get Wonders anyway (unless you happen to have a "free" Engineer, of course), so there's limited 'accidental' accumulation of GPs. The Theology beeline obviously puts you in a good position to take Education quickly - it doesn't have to be the next tech (and often won't be as I'll usually go back along the earlier tech paths I missed), but I'll generally still get it ahead of the competition.

I still see little flexibility in Babylon - if you're really only playing it for the free 1st GS, it really pales in comparison to the science boost you get from a 4+-city Maya play, which brings a continuous beaker boost to the table earlier than Korea. The major part of the Babylonian UA is the 50% bonus on GP production (which, much like the Maya UA, provides a benefit that inflates the cost of later GPs more than you would otherwise - the key advantage for both is that you get the GPs you need earlier), which demands a generally specific playstyle. It's simply bizarre to suggest that a UA that allows you to choose not only the order in which it provides its advantages but also the timing when you start to reap the benefits lacks flexibiity.

EDIT: You responded too quickly - I elaborated on the post you responded to with edits while you were typing your response.

The point I was trying to make is that you can only run an artist (via Amphitheater) or merchant (via Market) if you are delaying Theology to generate a great person naturally before the Long Count starts increasing the cost. You are much better off beelining Theology and getting a "free" GS and GE (or GP if you prefer) earlier. In my recent Maya game they popped on turn 72 and turn 86 respectively. The downside (and thus liability) is that you have now increased the cost of generating a great person from natural specialist and wonder points by a factor of 3x. Your Long Count will not generate another GS or GE until near the end of the game, and as you take the GA and GM from the Long count the cost to generate great people will increase still further.

Now compare this to Babylon. You get a truly free (does not increase cost) GS at Writing which can be settled as an Academy for +8 (+12 once the National Library is finished, and +24 :c5science later after Freedom is finished) which accumulates every turn for the entire game. Assuming you take the GS on turn 72 as Maya, that is a minimum of 448 produced over the preceding 56 turns (more if the National College is finished) which is 3-4 techs that Babylon is already ahead this early in the game. The +50% GS generation also helps the capital to churn out GS more often throughout the game while other cities can specialize on other types of great people to get a few of the other great people types you want when you want them.

The bottom line is that is everything in CiV. The faster you can out research your opponents, the more you can accomplish anything else in the game (warfare, wonder building, infrastructure improvement, expansion, etc.).

= flexibility

I urge you to give it a try. Compare Maya to Babylon head to head using similar strategies and goals for your game and see which one outperforms.

 

[woodshadows]

Should the Iroquois be dead, post 746 didn't provide reasons for the votes which finished them off. I believe I saw somewhere someone say only votes with reasons count.

 

[woodshadows]

I'm also not really seeing Ethiopia as a cultural civ - all it gives in culture is +1 culture per monument

The guarantee of religious/pantheon choice and the momentum from early exploitation of that allows you to fill your cities with pagodas/mosques/etc or religious/pantheon beliefs which provide for culture. The defense bonus allows you to hold onto your territory and focus on building rather than defending. On Immortal and Deity I'd choose Ethiopia over say, Ramses, whose wonder building bonus doesn't account for much.

 

[PhilBowles]

The point I was trying to make is that you can only run an artist (via Amphitheater) or merchant (via Market) if you are delaying Theology to generate a great person naturally before the Long Count starts increasing the cost.

And I'm asking why you'd want to produce that GP early if that's your objective. My point wasn't to delay Theology so that you don't get a cost increase early - you are always going to want at least two of the earliest GPs - it's that you can delay it so that you only ever get 6 rather than 7 Theology GPs. It's only in the late game when you may be forced to take a GP you don't want increasing the cost of the others, and this way you can avoid even that.

You are much better off beelining Theology and getting a "free" GS and GE (or GP if you prefer) earlier.

Yes, you are. But my point was that if you want to avoid the trivial drawback getting a Great Merchant in the 1600s represents on levels where the game is often won shortly after that, you can freely do so. It's not particularly good play, but then nor is taking GPs you don't want early enough in the game for the UA to represent any kind of disadvantage.

In my recent Maya game they popped on turn 72 and turn 86 respectively. The downside (and thus liability) is that you have now increased the cost of generating a great person from natural specialist and wonder points by a factor of 3x. Your Long Count will not generate another GS or GE until near the end of the game,

And no other civ's UA will produce a second GS at all, or a GE. And only Babylon and Sweden will accelerate the rate at which you can produce either naturally.

and as you take the GA and GM from the Long count the cost to generate great people will increase still further.

Now compare this to Babylon. You get a truly free (does not increase cost) GS at Writing which can be settled as an Academy for +8 (+12 once the National Library is finished, and +24 :c5science later after Freedom is finished) which accumulates every turn for the entire game. Assuming you take the GS on turn 72 as Maya, that is a minimum of 448 produced over the preceding 56 turns (more if the National College is finished) which is 3-4 techs that Babylon is already ahead this early in the game.

This calculation assumes that the Maya haven't also taken the Liberty finisher (it's more unlikely Babylon will take it than the Maya, since Babylon's reliance on later GP generation favours the food bonuses from Tradition), and also neglects the science being churned out by every Maya Pyramid. Though I concede it's true that Babylon will almost invariably get the National College faster than the Maya, and with its attendant Academy in the capital that can make a big difference.

The +50% GS generation also helps the capital to churn out GS more often throughout the game while other cities can specialize on other types of great people to get a few of the other great people types you want when you want them.

The only difference between that and the Maya being that with the Maya you don't need to allocate specialists to producing GPs you only want one of, and you don't suffer the penalty to production of non-scientist GPs you do with the cost inflation inherent in producing 50% more GSes.

The bottom line is that is everything in CiV. The faster you can out research your opponents, the more you can accomplish anything else in the game (warfare, wonder building, infrastructure improvement, expansion, etc.).

This is very true, but how you get to that science and the relative strengths of different approaches is something you're neglecting. Babylon isn't uniquely flexible because only Babylon does science; on the contrary the Maya do science better than any civ except Babylon and Korea, at the same time as having the tools to provide specific advantages to other elements of gameplay that can outweigh the advantages of pure science when targeting specific victory conditions (including science - Maya have a far better chance of getting Porcelain Tower on higher difficulties than Babylon due to the GE pop).

Come to that civs with growth/population benefits (such as Siam's bonus from maritime CSes, or indeed a Swedish Honor GG-maritime CS alliance play, giving a big food boost for 30 turns and +2 food for the next 30, notwithstanding that Sweden can potentially match or exceed the Babylonian GP production bonus, only for all GPs rather than just scientists) are even more flexible, since they accelerate science at the same time as providing additional citizens that can improve early production or be placed in specialist buildings. Even production/gold bonuses can outweigh pure science, if you don't have the production or economy to translate your quick rush to Education into quick Universities, or whatever.

Babylon isn't a versatile civ that excels at everything because it techs fast without any opportunity cost; it's a civ that techs fast at the expense of having no advantages in producing the population growth or buildings it needs to employ the specialists its UA requires, or the culture it needs to quickly reach Rationalism, the Liberty GS and other science-boosting social policies or the faith to farm for Interfaith Dialogue and Industrial-era GS purchases come to that.

 

[truenarnian]

Arabia 29
Babylon 30
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 9
Inca 28
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 21
Persia 19
Roman Empire 12
Russia 7
Siam 17

How did Persia magically get 3 extra points in post 711? It went from 16 to 19. That can't even be an arror. Surely it was deliberate. I cry foul on user theguy8882. It should have been 16 at that point.

Cman, Uzumati, animalguy then upvoted to make 19.

 

[truenarnian]

Arabia 29
Babylon 30
Carthage 18
China 25
England 13
Ethiopia 10
Inca 28
Korea 27
Maya 20
Netherlands 21
Persia 17
Roman Empire 12
Russia 7
Siam 17

Ethiopia: Awesome icon and colors (just need to lighten the green slightly so it doesn't look like barbs), nice flavorful UA.

Persia: I hate his start bias. In the five or so starts I did with him, he gets marshy rivers with few lux.

 

[Awsome Sause]

Ethiopia will often trump Celts for getting early religion since he doesn't have to rely on settling beside forests and Legalism give free Steles.

Ya but with the Celts start Bias I Usually have around 3 forests near my capitol and a few good settling spots with a lot of Forest. The Celts are also more likely to get additional cities up faster since, they can take Liberty while Ethiopia should be taking tradition.There UU also pumps in some faith as well. I would say that the Celts have a better chance of getting the first religion IMO.