[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Kupe Navigator]

Modern, unfortunately. Very modern, even to my non-Korean ears

To be fair it is VERY hard to get korean speaker who speaks non-modern Korean. (Unless you want her sound like North Korean leader.) As Korean-New Zealander I think she sounds better than guy who did Sejong the great in civ 5.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

It is not a racist agenda. C'mon, the world is racist and any try to make it less racist is considered racism?
No way.
I just want more diverse nation, I want to fill all globe with all ethincity there is.
Why you think a diverse world should be racist?

I think racism is a game just with White Leaders in all corners.

Black guy who says blacks are bettet than whites is still a racist

 

[Thenewwwguy]

European source is just as good as non-European ones. It just matters on its historical value. Look when I was in University learning about Edo period in Japan we used both translated Japanese source and secondary English history books. Was my university wrong to use English history books?

agree to this. I think multiple of us are either university trained historians or at minimum, well-learned when it comes to historical research. Unfortunately, it seems that Henri Christophe is not.

Most of the people here with a decent idea of history know how to read history: first person sources should be preferential to the people that the source is about and closely read for imperialistic or racist biases

Historians themselves, their identity doesn’t matter. I’d argue the role of a historian is to interpret first person sources, so as long as they accurately do so, there is no need to be preferential to a specific historian

It is not a racist agenda. C'mon, the world is racist and any try to make it less racist is considered racism?
No way.
I just want more diverse nation, I want to fill all globe with all ethincity there is.
Why you think a diverse world should be racist?

I think racism is a game just with White Leaders in all corners.

Ummm, you’re saying that we shouldn’t listen to certain historians just because they’re white. That’s prejudicial, at minimum.

In regards to leader choice, I agree that we could do with more indigenous leaders, but there’s only 5 post colonial nations in this game. that’s not really ‘all corners of the world’

 

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

It is not a racist agenda. C'mon, the world is racist and any try to make it less racist is considered racism?
No way.
I just want more diverse nation, I want to fill all globe with all ethincity there is.
Why you think a diverse world should be racist?

I think racism is a game just with White Leaders in all corners.

Calling all white historians imperialist propagandists is kinda racist. Pushing back against racism would mean not caring about a historian’s race as long as their writing is factual

 

[Henri Christophe]

European source is just as good as non-European ones. It just matters on its historical value. Look when I was in University learning about Edo period in Japan we used both translated Japanese source and secondary English history books. Was my university wrong to use English history books?

English book can help you to have the first look, but if we really want to learn about Japanese history, you really need to go straigh to Japanese sources.
I'm not saying to don't use British, Portuguese, Korean or Chineses sources about Japan, But you cannot forget who write it.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Calling all white historians imperialist propagandists is kinda racist. Pushing back against racism would mean not caring about a historian’s race as long as their writing is factual

First, there is no fact in history.
History is narrative. I just try to tell a different narrative about the Fall of Rome and you all say about facts.
What is a fact?

The fall of Rome was a fact?
The Mussoline say he was a Rome Emperor isn't a fact?

WHAT IS A FACT?

 

[Zaarin]

It depends who wrote those History books and when they've been written.

History is journalism but for the past, and tell me journalism is no subject to opinion and ideologies.

True, but that's about reading critically, not just tossing out everything a group of people wrote because reasons. Even Herodotus was right occasionally.

To be fair it is VERY hard to get korean speaker who speaks non-modern Korean. (Unless you want her sound like North Korean leader.) As Korean-New Zealander I think she sounds better than guy who did Sejong the great in civ 5.

Very fair. I realize that archaic versions of many languages are hard to do well (I cringe every time Gilgabro talks--or Dido). It's just that Seondeok sounds like women I used to hear talking on the streets of Seoul when I lived in South Korea in the 90s. I understand Poles have the same complaint about Jadwiga (I'm not familiar enough with Polish to comment).

 

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

English book can help you to have the first look, but if we really want to learn about Japanese history, you really need to go straigh to Japanese sources.
I'm not saying to don't use British, Portuguese, Korean or Chineses sources about Japan, But you cannot forget who write it.

‘Don’t use outsider sources’ is EXACTLY what you’re saying

 

[Kupe Navigator]

English book can help you to have the first look, but if we really want to learn about Japanese history, you really need to go straigh to Japanese sources.
I'm not saying to don't use British, Portuguese, Korean or Chineses sources about Japan, But you cannot forget who write it.

And why would nationality matter? Can't Koreans write good history about Japan? Can't English guy write good honest history about India?

 

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

First, there is no fact in history.
History is narrative. I just try to tell a different narrative about the Fall of Rome and you all say about facts.
What is a fact?

The fall of Rome was a fact?
The Mussoline say he was a Rome Emperor isn't a fact?

WHAT IS A FACT?

A fact is something that is true. Not an opinion. It is a fact that the western Roman Empire fell when Odoacer sacked Rome in 476. It is a fact that the eastern Roman Empire fell in 1453 when Constantinople fell.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Very fair. I realize that archaic versions of many languages are hard to do well (I cringe every time Gilgabro talks--or Dido). It's just that Seondeok sounds like women I used to hear talking on the streets of Seoul when I lived in South Korea in the 90s. I understand Poles have the same complaint about Jadwiga (I'm not familiar enough with Polish to comment).

The woman who did voice of Seondok is a professional voice actress. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seo_Yu-ri

 

[Thenewwwguy]

First, there is no fact in history.
History is narrative. I just try to tell a different narrative about the Fall of Rome and you all say about facts.
What is a fact?

The fall of Rome was a fact?
The Mussoline say he was a Rome Emperor isn't a fact?

WHAT IS A FACT?

reality is fact.

We know for a fact that Mussolini was a fascist dictator of Italy, regardless of what he thought he was

We know for a fact that upon the sacking of Rome by Odacer, the Italian peninsula broke into numerous city states that didn’t reunify until the 1800s, forming Italy.

We know for a fact that the HRE was a collective confederacy of germanic city states, not a roman empire

We know for a fact that Akbar thought himself the Sultan of Agra, the Mughal Empire and Lahore, and viewed himself as a Persian. We also know for a fact that he was ethnically turkic.

 

[Henri Christophe]

And why would nationality matter? Can't Koreans write good history about Japan? Can't English guy write good honest history about India?

That is exaclty the point. THEY CAN'T

You can use Koreans sources to start to learn about Japanese history. Ok, No problem in that.

BUT, just use Koreans sources about Japanese history it is TOTALLY WRONG.

I guess is this my point. We need to always look the native source, if it available.

 

[Zaarin]

The woman who did voice of Seondok is a professional voice actress. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seo_Yu-ri

Oh, I wasn't criticizing her acting. She just sounds very modern is all I'm saying. (Same with Dido and Gilgabro, actually. Their delivery is on point; their pronunciation is atrocious. )

 

[Thenewwwguy]

That is exaclty the point. THEY CAN'T

You can use Koreans sources to start to learn about Japanese history. Ok, No problem in that.

BUT, just use Koreans sources about Japanese history it is TOTALLY WRONG.

I guess is this my point. We need to always look the native source, if it available.

that’s not what you were saying when you refused to read Encyclopedia Britannica. Don’t change the goalpost to agree with us to cover from the idiotic crap that you were spewing out earlier

 

[Grand-Admiral Thrawn]

That is exaclty the point. THEY CAN'T

You can use Koreans sources to start to learn about Japanese history. Ok, No problem in that.

BUT, just use Koreans sources about Japanese history it is TOTALLY WRONG.

I guess is this my point. We need to always look the native source, if it available.

You were saying that any European source about Akbar was wrong, that the only thing that was right was an Indian source

 

[Potworny]

I'm not sure how the Netherlands theory got started but I would say they're one of the least likely to get a new leader.

]
About the Netherlands, as the unique leader seems to require R&F (as per the pack #5 description), it implies (at least this is the way I see it) that not only they can be played with a R&F civ, but also there also no civs outside of the R&F expansion that they can lead. If it wasn't so, why specify having the expansion as a requirement? If it was, for example, Kublai Khan, while it's perfectly logical why players without R&F wouldn't be able to play as him leading Mongolia, I see no reason to bar the expansion-less players from playing with him leading China.

Considering how the announcement is phrased, it appears most likely that the new alternate leader will lead only one civ from the R&F expansion and among the possible candidates, Korea and the Netherlands are probably most popular. The inclusion of the latter is further supported by Portugal, whose appearance in NFP seems almost certain. The two civs could be easily thematically paired up with their shared history of trade and colonialism.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

That is exaclty the point. THEY CAN'T

You can use Koreans sources to start to learn about Japanese history. Ok, No problem in that.

BUT, just use Koreans sources about Japanese history it is TOTALLY WRONG.

I guess is this my point. We need to always look the native source, if it available.

But what was all that imperial crap you were talking about? Wouldn't it make more sence not to use non-native source at all if all non-native sources (especially European )are imperial propaganda?

 

[Henri Christophe]

that’s not what you were saying when you refused to read Encyclopedia Britannica. Don’t change the goalpost to agree with us to cover from the idiotic crap that you were spewing out earlier

I guess it was out of context.

When I start to speak bad about Britannica Source was when I was arguing if the Seminole's are Black or Native.
Britannica Source said Seminole are Native Americans.
I found a Black source saying they are a mix race.

After some discussion I just start to read a lot about Seminole and finally understand well the problem.

There is 3 Seminole Groups.

Oklahoma's Seminole are indeed more Native American.
Florida's Seminole are full mix race
Mexican's Semino are more Black.

Britannica source just speak about Oklahoma's Seminole, My black Source just speak about Florida's Seminole.

Indeed, both are wrong after all.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

]
About the Netherlands, as the unique leader seems to require R&F (as per the pack #5 description), it implies (at least this is the way I see it) that not only they can be played with a R&F civ, but also there also no civs outside of the R&F expansion that they can lead. If it wasn't so, why specify having the expansion as a requirement? If it was, for example, Kublai Khan, while it's perfectly logical why players without R&F wouldn't be able to play as him leading Mongolia, I see no reason to bar the expansion-less players from playing with him leading China.

Considering how the announcement is phrased, it appears most likely that the new alternate leader will lead only one civ from the R&F expansion and among the possible candidates, Korea and the Netherlands are probably most popular. The inclusion of the latter is further supported by Portugal, whose appearance in NFP seems almost certain. The two civs could be easily thematically paired up with their shared history of trade and colonialism.

Great. Korea is in dire need of new leader. Crossing my fingers for Sejong the Great. (I am bit of Sejong fanboy.)