[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

Oh my...be still my beating heart! That would literally be perfect to me. Now my hopes are up!

Right? I kept approaching the Ancient era problem with a 1 civ or 1 civ + alt leader solution. But with Hittites + a Mesopotamian civ, it would be great! Plus Mursili notably raided Babylon and ended the reign of Hammurabi's dynasty a few centuries after he lived.

 

[Zaarin]

To be fair, the Hittites were a muti-faceted people with a wide variety of historical attributes. Depending on the aspect of Hittite history they'd chose to focus on, the Hittites could either be diplomatic, militaristic, religious, or scientific or some combination of these. If it does indeed become a one-trick dom civ, it will only be because Firaxis chooses to make it so, which is a possibility with any potential civ that had a good military record.

I agree with you, but Firaxis has a history of shoehorning certain civs to play certain roles. I'd lay money that if we get the Hittites, 90% of their abilities are going to be focused on war.

Every civilization that stood the test of time had to be multi-faceted. After all, you can't stand for centuries only with religion or culture. You need a mix of everything. And the state in which FXS reduced each civ is what stood for it in all their achievments. And Assyria is known outside of academic/geek circles as a warmonger/conqueror/imperialist empire.

I think this is unfortunately true, but I think Assyria stands a chance at being a culture/builder civ if Babylon is not in the game. I feel like Assyria often gets pushed into that niche to differentiate it from Babylon, the science/builder civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Some thoughts on the paired civs in the September DLC.

Goths and Byzantines

Or

Hittites and Babylon (particularly with Mursili and Hammurabi as leaders)

Are there any other good pairings out of the likely remaining options?

I have my hopes for Assyria + Byzantines as I think they are geographically close enough to make a good "Middle East" pack. As much as the Hittites would be interesting would they give us another Anatolian civ with the Byzantines being more likely?

I agree with you, but Firaxis has a history of shoehorning certain civs to play certain roles. I'd lay money that if we get the Hittites, 90% of their abilities are going to be focused on war.

Then why did they make it into a scientific city-state?

 

[Zaarin]

Then why did they make it into a scientific city-state?

Because you need science to unlock resources, I guess?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I have my hopes for Assyria + Byzantines as I think they are geographically close enough to make a good "Middle East" pack. As much as the Hittites would be interesting would they give us another Anatolian civ with the Byzantines being more likely?


Then why did they make it into a scientific city-state?

Geography is only one factor on choosing civs. Chronology matters too. And when you look at the Ancient era which badly needs more representation, you basically have three choices for well-attested cultures: Egypt (which seems unlikely since the alt-leader requires RnF), Mesopotamia (which already has Sumer and will likely get Babylon), or Anatolia (and Hittites haven't been in Civ since III).

I don't see Hittites and Byzantines stepping on each other's toes that much since they were thousands of years apart.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Geography is only one factor on choosing civs. Chronology matters too. And when you look at the Ancient era which badly needs more representation, you basically have three choices for well-attested cultures: Egypt (which seems unlikely since the alt-leader requires RnF), Mesopotamia (which already has Sumer and will likely get Babylon), or Anatolia (and Hittites haven't been in Civ since III).

I don't see Hittites and Byzantines stepping on each other's toes that much since they were thousands of years apart.

I agree with the Ancient Era needing more representation. I'm just not so sure we will get two of them and the civs from Mesopotamia seems more logical for them to choose at the moment.
As much as it would be cool to have an extra Ancient Era civ it would most likely mean we wouldn't get any tribe from North America which I think is needed just as much.

 

[pokiehl]

I agree with the Ancient Era needing more representation. I'm just not so sure we will get two of them and the civs from Mesopotamia seems more logical for them to choose at the moment.
As much as it would be cool to have an extra Ancient Era civ it would most likely mean we wouldn't get any tribe from North America which I think is needed just as much.

I don't think getting Babylon + Hittites would "mean" anything. Why do you ascribe arbitrary representation rules to any era or locale in the game despite the massive overrepresentations of key eras and regions?

Ultimately these are simply made-up selection rules that posters here create and are often broken then rejustified with the benefit of retrospect. Firaxis can and will put anything they want in the game. Before GS I wager that many thought Firaxis "can't" have one leader for two civs (or would have thought due to the over representation of Europe that it would certainly not be Eleanor). And so on and so on.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't think getting Babylon + Hittites would "mean" anything. Why do you ascribe arbitrary representation rules to any era or locale in the game despite the massive overrepresentations of key eras and regions?

Ultimately these are simply made-up selection rules that posters here create and are often broken then rejustified with the benefit of retrospect. Firaxis can and will put anything they want in the game. Before GS I wager that many thought Firaxis "can't" have one leader for two civs (or would have thought due to the over representation of Europe that it would certainly not be Eleanor). And so on and so on.

You might be right. I'm just going off of the past two expansions that released 8 civilizations though, just like the NFP, and it's all just assumptions based off of what we've already seen and know.

I'm assuming Europe will get two of the remaining civilizations spots, like they have the last two expansions, and we will get something from East Asia since it was passed over in GS.
That would leave two spots left which I would think would need to go to a NA civ and then a Middle East civ from the Ancient Era.

But you are right that I could totally be wrong in my thinking. I can't help the way I think sometimes.
The worse part is me trying to rationalize putting Italy somewhere but I don't know how to it without taking out another Civ I want as well.

 

[Jeppetto]

I'd be inclined to think instead of a 'Middle East' map it might actually be more of a 'Mediterranean' one - i.e. that could fit say both Assyria and the Berbers. Assyria and Portugal might be a stretch though in terms of distance. Assyria and Renaissance Italy? Those are all weird combos outside of map considerations though.

Well we already have West Asia covering good chunk of many things so I expect simply East Asia.

 

[The Kingmaker]

As much as I’d like to see it, I don’t expect to see Assyria and/or Babylon and/or the Hittites all together unless we get a Final Frontier pass.

I think we might get one this time around, if we’re lucky. In order of likelihood: Babylon most likely, then Assyria, then Hittites.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well we already have West Asia covering good chunk of many things so I expect simply East Asia.

There's already an East Asia map though.

 

[Jeppetto]

Shrine: I feel like some Civ will get one but I'm not sure who. Vietnam has an interesting history most of their population today still holds on to traditional folk religion so a shrine replacement representing that might not be out of the realm of possibility, however at the same time the Water Puppet Theater sounds like it might work better as an improvement. I'll throw in Burma as a possibility as well.

I too would expect Shrine to be used for pagan/primitive/ancient religion, though it's questionable whether there's space for one. If there is some Native American Tribe with distinctive and well-known signature folklore/religious infrastructure, that would be my bet.

Workshop: My preference if we could get a unique workshop could go to Italy. It could grant culture and extra writer, artist, and musician points in addition to the abilites of a regular workshop.

Not gonna lie, that sounds to me like Leonardo DaVinci as Civ Ability. Though to be honest Menelik's Ability is also very similar to one of the bonuses of the Voidsingers.

There's already an East Asia map though.

Damn I need sleep I think I just swapped West with East

 

[Zaarin]

As much as I’d like to see it, I don’t expect to see Assyria and/or Babylon and/or the Hittites all together unless we get a Final Frontier pass.

I think we might get one this time around, if we’re lucky. In order of likelihood: Babylon most likely, then Assyria, then Hittites.

The devs need to just let me design the game. No one will ever complain about the game being Eurocentric again; they'll just complain about it being Ancient Near East centric. I can see the complaints rolling in already: "Why do we have Elam and Moab in the game when England and America aren't in the game yet?"

If there is some Native American Tribe with distinctive and well-known signature folklore/religious infrastructure, that would be my bet.

It depends on which part of the country they choose a Native American tribe from, but a lot of them didn't have separate sacred/secular spaces.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I too would expect Shrine to be used for pagan/primitive/ancient religion, though it's questionable whether there's space for one. If there is some Native American Tribe with distinctive and well-known signature folklore/religious infrastructure, that would be my bet.

If I was going to design Civ I would have personally gave it for Japan, but I can understand why they went for Electronics factory instead.

I also think that it could work for any "Celtic" civ if we got one too. Going off of what Humankind did they could use a Nemeton maybe? Though the only bonus I could think of it getting would be similar to Norway's Stave Church with more faith from adjacent unimproved woods.

Not gonna lie, that sounds to me like Leonardo DaVinci as Civ Ability. Though to be honest Menelik's Ability is also very similar to one of the bonuses of the Voidsingers.

That is kind of the point of it. Though to be fair Leonardo was not the only Italian to have his own workshop which is why I think it could work as a UB.

 

[Zaarin]

If I was going to design Civ I would have personally gave it for Japan, but I can understand why they went for Electronics factory instead.

Before Japan was revealed, I was really hoping they'd get a Torii Gate as their UI, which could have been a Shrine replacement.

I also think that it could work for any "Celtic" civ if we got one too. Going off of what Humankind did they could use a Nemeton maybe?

*groaning intensifies* It's not that nemetoi are ahistorical; it's just that I don't want a stereotypical druid civ again. Plus the dunon is more interesting.

 

[Jeppetto]

And again, I have to point out like I did just a page ago that Babylon was a staple when city-states weren't even invented yet. Given that V's idea of city states was rather rough, I would argue VI is the first instance where city-states were planned and thought out as smaller kingdoms and empires. So this is really the first time where we have been presented with the question of which, if any, staples could or should be downgraded to city-states. It's kind of a non-argument to say that Babylon must be a civ because it has always been a civ, when this is the first time we can even have the discussion of whether it might be better as a city-state.

The question is, why not leave Amsterdam and Seul as City-States but promote them into Civilizations non-the-less? I don't really understand why Babylon would be considered "better off as CS only" but not them.

 

[Zaarin]

The question is, why not leave Amsterdam and Seul as City-States but promote them into Civilizations non-the-less? I don't really understand why Babylon would be considered "better off as CS only" but not them.

To play devil's advocate, the Netherlands and Korea both had empires. Babylon had an off-and-on empire, but it really was always about the city of Babylon. (I personally think we will get Babylon, and I think there's plenty of design space to make it a sort of inverse Maya where it gets a super-boosted capital with weaker supporting cities. But there's plenty of room to argue it fits best as a city-state.)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

*groaning intensifies* It's not that nemetoi are ahistorical; it's just that I don't want a stereotypical druid civ again. Plus the dunon is more interesting.

Which is probably why Norway got those bonuses. It was the only other option I could think of.

The question is, why not leave Amsterdam and Seul as City-States but promote them into Civilizations non-the-less? I don't really understand why Babylon would be considered "better off as CS only" but not them.

Speaking historically Babylon was actually a city-state until it became the capital of the region Babylonia by conquering it's neighbors.
@Zaarin beat me to it.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

To play devil's advocate, the Netherlands and Korea both had empires. Babylon had an off-and-on empire, but it really was always about the city of Babylon. (I personally think we will get Babylon, and I think there's plenty of design space to make it a sort of inverse Maya where it gets a super-boosted capital with weaker supporting cities. But there's plenty of room to argue it fits best as a city-state.)

It just fits so comfortably as a city-state. I really think this will be the first game where it won't be a civ because it has found a niche that makes more sense.

Other things I might observe:

* Ethiopia pretty much rules out Byzantium, if it is in NFP, getting a unique church thing or a faith-and-trade focus. It might have faith, it might have trade, but it won't have both and will more likely pivot toward culture, production, maybe science.
* Every year we have gotten precisely one production-oriented civ (Nubia, Scotland, Inca). Given the dearth of civs that would be strong production candidates, I think there is a very good chance that if we get Byzantium it will be a production-oriented civ. In retrospect I don't understand why this idea hasn't been pitched more because it actually makes quite a lot of sense to give Byzantium a strong, non-differentiated infrastructure from which it can then pursue any victory condition. (yes Portugal could also get a Feitoria but it just doesn't flavorfully feel like a "production" civ)
* We also tend to get about two-ish culture civs and at least one maritime civ, none of which have appeared thus far in NFP. As far as Europe goes it's pretty clear which civs would be cultural or maritime, but I hope that we get some variety like a Berber/Navajo cultural focus or a Vietnamese naval UU.

 

[Zaarin]

As far as Europe goes it's pretty clear which civs would be cultural or maritime, but I hope that we get some variety like a Berber/Navajo cultural focus or a Vietnamese naval UU.

This is why I've always wanted the Tlingit or another PNW civ in the game because they'd obviously be a culture civ, which would be a major shakeup to how people view Native American civs.