[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Zaarin]

It's a bit of a catch-22. I would argue that the savage native stereotype is older, more prevalent, and absolutely more harmful. I think civ, and especially VI, would rather err toward positive stereotypes.

Eh, I'm currently slogging through Star Trek: Voyager for heaven knows what reason, and I die a little inside every time Chakotay opens his mouth (and so does Robert Beltran: it's written all over his face ). Positive stereotypes aren't any less harmful than the negative ones.

 

[Patine]

Eh, I'm currently slogging through Star Trek: Voyager for heaven knows what reason, and I die a little inside every time Chakotay opens his mouth (and so does Robert Beltran: it's written all over his face ). Positive stereotypes aren't any less harmful than the negative ones.

And, of course, no civilization who has succeeded and flourished in history has ever done so by being truly "peaceful," in the cliched sense, except maybe outliers like the Norte Chico civilization, who show no signs of violent conflict or endeavour in their archaeological site (or artistic expression, either, curiously), but they lived in an isolated cove along the Peruvian Coast, and likely rarely met anyone one else.

 

[8housesofelixir]

There were five, if I recall, and along with Wu Zetian and two, I think, Queens Regnant of Silla.

Queen Mother or Queen Dowager is different from a Queen Regnant, at least in East Asia, since the former is more of a Regent than a Regnant.

Wu Zetian was, technically, an Emperor (cf. Irene of Athens, who used the male monarch title basileus instead of the female title basilissa), so she can be labeled as a Queen Regnant. The same goes for the Silla Queens and the female Emperors of Japan.

Figures such as Empress Lü, Hōjō Masako, and Empress Dowager Cixi are the Queen Mothers I referred to; they all worked as a Regent or behind the scenes, rather than taken the throne themselves.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I could see Hammurabi starting with Code of Laws and maybe having an extra policy slot of some sort.

I could also see the UA being something like a production discount to city center buildings.

I anticipate the unique infrastructure will be a unique Library. We're overdue for a unique building.

These are exactly what I was thinking they could get as well. However I was thinking the UA might focus specifically on walls more though but generic city center buildings makes sense too.

Victoria is still one of the best candidates to represent England. In fact I would argue that as a matter of global impact, the British empire was largest under her reign, and the agricultural/industrial revolution was far more influential to the course of history than the Elizabethan arts. And like it or not, it's called the Victorian era for a reason lol.

I like the British side to England but as long as there is an actual non-British side as well. I would be happy with both Victoria and Elizabeth.

I disagree with Zaarin regarding the Cree not being an Iroquois replacement. They both occupy pretty close niches (and if not the Cree, then Canada is poaching on the Iroquois TSL area). The Mekewap is quite similar to a longhouse, and overall the Cree occupy a trading niche that people would typically expect from the Iroquois (granted, with less of a warmongering slant). The Cree feel like they were designed to fill the Iroquois role, but with a more peaceful approach to diplomacy, no doubt a consequence of wanted to diversify playstyles a bit as well as make the indigenous civs a bit more dimensional and less stereotypical.

At this point I'm kind of afraid that it was the introduction of peaceful Canada that might have made it an Iroquois replacement, or over any other tribe from North America.

Though on the flipside we got an extra tribe from South America in the Mapuche.

 

[Lord Lakely]

lol @ thinking Canada will become a Civ staple. I don't bloody think so.

 

[Patine]

lol @ thinking Canada will become a Civ staple. I don't bloody think so.

If Mohandas Gandhi has to appear in every damned iteration to the point of having long-running gags attached to him in game, why not? The choice of civ's that appear seems to retain an arbitrary element to it, even if it's gotten somewhat more methodical. Maybe they should get rid of nations like, not only Canada, but America, Mexico, Brazil, Gran Colombia, Australia, etc. starting in 4000 BC (always kind of weird, as is) and just have a "independence revolution or devolution," mechanic of some sort for far-flung settled areas of overreaching nations far from home in later iterations of the game.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Figures such as Empress Lü, Hōjō Masako, and Empress Dowager Cixi are the Queen Mothers I referred to; they all worked as a Regent or behind the scenes, rather than taken the throne themselves.

They're all perfectly viable choices As long as the person in question held power and/or influence and did something productive with that influence, they are eligible for Civ leadership (in addition to anyone who actually *was* a king, regent, commander, chieftain, prime-minister, etc). Queen-Consorts were often as vital to their husband's successes as their husbands themselves. (Taytu Betul of Ethiopia was a skilled diplomat, much moreso than her husband Menelik II, Livia arranged the domestic affairs and games that would cement her husband's popularity and reputation, etc). I'm perfectly okay with CdM and Eleanor being leaders.

Likewise, symbolic leader choices like a Kupe, Shaka, Hiawatha, Dido or Victoria are also viable because they are, fact or fictional, the *face* of that culture.

 

[Patine]

They're all perfectly viable choices As long as the person in question held power and/or influence and did something productive with that influence, they are eligible for Civ leadership (in addition to anyone who actually *was* a king, regent, commander, chieftain, prime-minister, etc). Queen-Consorts were often as vital to their husband's successes as their husbands themselves. (Taytu Betul of Ethiopia was a skilled diplomat, much moreso than her husband Menelik II, Livia arranged the domestic affairs and games that would cement her husband's popularity and reputation, etc). I'm perfectly okay with CdM and Eleanor being leaders.

Likewise, symbolic leader choices like a Kupe, Shaka, Hiawatha, Dido or Victoria are also viable because they are, fact or fictional, the *face* of that culture.

Except that Dido didn't verifiably exist - a problem I have also have with Gilgamesh.

 

[Lord Lakely]

If Mohandas Gandhi has to appear in every damned iteration to the point of having long-running gags attached to him in game, why not? The choice of civ's that appear seems to retain an arbitrary element to it, even if it's gotten somewhat more methodical. Maybe they should get rid of nations like, not only Canada, but America, Mexico, Brazil, Gran Colombia, Australia, etc. starting in 4000 BC (always kind of weird, as is) and just have a "independence revolution or devolution," mechanic of some sort for far-flung settled areas of overreaching nations far from home in later iterations of the game.

There was nothing random about Canada's inclusion lol. Ed deliberately chose to include them and I believe the reasons he cited were:

1) Canada hadn't been included in Civ before,
2) Firaxis needed a civ specialized in Emergencies to sell their new mechanic
3) Firaxis needed a peaceful civ specialized in Dip (opposed to Hungary, who are a warlike Diplomacy civ)
4) Publicity for the Canadian market

Of those four points, only the last one remains a viable reason for Canada's inclusion in future installments. Canada's continued persistance in Civ 7 and beyond will come to fruition because of pandering (omg don't forget those Canadians!!!) and greed (who will now all buy our game!!), which are reasons I dont sympathize with, if you get my drift.

(I don't mind it with Poland because Poland was a highly important country throughout European history. Poland is a Civ that should always been included, though their inclusion in the base game is a bit iffy.)

Personally, I like Canada in Civ 6, I would not want to see them (or Australia for that matter) take up precious Civilization slots that could've instead gone to a more inspired choice. Georgia, Gran Colombia and Mapuche won't. Neither should Canada.

 

[Zaarin]

Except that Dido didn't verifiably exist - a problem I have also have with Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh verifiably existed. He was not verifiably one-third divine nor did he verifiably go on a quest for immortality. I've gradually shifted my position on Dido's existence from possible to probable, though I still think the historical woman may have been conflated with a goddess--her name still sounds very much like a divine epithet to me. Of all Civ6's mythical and semi-mythical leaders, I'm most skeptical about Tomyris and Kupe.

 

[Patine]

Canada was included because
1) Canada hadn't been included in Civ before,
2) Firaxis needed a civ specialized in Emergencies to sell their new mechanic 3) Firaxis needed a peaceful civ specialized in Dip (opposed to Hungary, who are a warlike Diplomacy civ)
3) Publicity for the Canadian market

Of those three points, only the third remains as a viable point towards Canada's inclusion in future installment. Canada's continued persistance in Civ 7 and beyond will mostly be because of pandering and greed, which are reasons I dont sympathize with, if you get my drift.

I don't mind them as a one-off inclusion but I would not want to see them (or Australia for that matter) take up precious Civilization slots that could've instead gone to a more inspired choice. Georgia and Mapuche won't. Neither should Canada.

Mind, you, this is such a small issue to overreact over. I wasn't trying, nor have any intention, to start a fight, but I sense a certain degree of inexplicable anger.

Gilgamesh verifiably existed. He was not verifiably one-third divine nor did he verifiably go on a quest for immortality. I've gradually shifted my position on Dido's existence from possible to probable, though I still think the historical woman may have been conflated with a goddess--her name still sounds very much like a divine epithet to me. Of all Civ6's mythical and semi-mythical leaders, I'm most skeptical about Tomyris and Kupe.

I don't know. Before we know it, we'll have Agamemnon of the Greeks, Romulus of the Romans, Arthur Pendragon of the English, Arjuna Pandhava of the Indians, Jimmu Tenno of the Japanese, and Shu the Canal-Builder of the Chinese, or so I almost fear... :S

 

[Lord Lakely]

Mind, you, this is such a small issue to overreact over. I wasn't trying, nor have any intention, to start a fight, but I sense a certain degree of inexplicable anger.

Spillover bitterness from Assyria getting sidelined in Civ 6. Apologies if I came off a bit aggro.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't know. Before we know it, we'll have Agamemnon of the Greeks, Romulus of the Romans, Arthur Pendragon of the English, Arjuna Pandhava of the Indians, Jimmu Tenno of the Japanese, and Shu the Canal-Builder of the Chinese, or so I almost fear... :S

To clarify my position, I'm not fond of mythical leaders. There's almost always a better option, and I think it's pretty well known that I think Civ6's Sumerian civilization is abhorrent. I was just pointing out that we do have independent evidence of Gilgamesh's existence in the form of a cylinder seal; it is also attested he built the walls of Uruk. Like Arthur, the mythical Gilgamesh was probably more important than the historical Gilgamesh, but he did exist. I still would have preferred Gudea or Naram-Sin or even Kuĝ-bau.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Mahavihara UI for Anuradhapura seems likely.


Celsus or Mari?

Not to be that guy but a second Sinhalese religious city state from Sri Lanka seems ill conceived, especially one like Anuradhapura which historically marks the beginning of Sinhalese rule in the historically Tamil north.

To choose Anuradhapura rather than Jaffna to represent the Northern portion of Sri Lanka would feel a) redundant, since there would be two religious Sinhalese Sri Lankan CS and b) kinda reductive. Jaffna as a trade city state makes far more sense to represent Northern Sri Lanka as it would represent the Tamil population, the historically autonomous north (think Kingdom of Jaffna).

I think picking a historically Buddhist Nepali site would make sense, so perhaps not Kathmandu as a historically hindu site, but perhaps a different option.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Who says it's going to be a CS improvement? Maybe the Mahavihara will be a new Religious tenet.

 

[Kimiimaro]

(Except I want Maria Theresa back for Austria please and thank you. )

Joseph II isn't a bad choice either, you know. Plus, he's her son

 

[Zaarin]

Joseph II isn't a bad choice either, you know. Plus, he's her son

Maria Theresa or bust.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Maria Theresa or bust.

What, do you not want a leader who had such a burning passion for enlightenment that he issued two reforms a day on average and banned burials in coffins for some time to save wood?

 

[Zaarin]

banned burials in coffins for some time to save wood?

Ah, so vampires are his fault.

 

[8housesofelixir]

What, do you not want a leader who had such a burning passion for enlightenment that he issued two reforms a day on average and banned burials in coffins for some time to save wood?

Why does a lot of Portuguese monarchs sound like the central figure of a Latin American dictator novel.