[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Lord Lakely]

If Mohandas Gandhi has to appear in every damned iteration to the point of having long-running gags attached to him in game, why not? The choice of civ's that appear seems to retain an arbitrary element to it, even if it's gotten somewhat more methodical. Maybe they should get rid of nations like, not only Canada, but America, Mexico, Brazil, Gran Colombia, Australia, etc. starting in 4000 BC (always kind of weird, as is) and just have a "independence revolution or devolution," mechanic of some sort for far-flung settled areas of overreaching nations far from home in later iterations of the game.

There was nothing random about Canada's inclusion lol. Ed deliberately chose to include them and I believe the reasons he cited were:

1) Canada hadn't been included in Civ before,
2) Firaxis needed a civ specialized in Emergencies to sell their new mechanic
3) Firaxis needed a peaceful civ specialized in Dip (opposed to Hungary, who are a warlike Diplomacy civ)
4) Publicity for the Canadian market

Of those four points, only the last one remains a viable reason for Canada's inclusion in future installments. Canada's continued persistance in Civ 7 and beyond will come to fruition because of pandering (omg don't forget those Canadians!!!) and greed (who will now all buy our game!!), which are reasons I dont sympathize with, if you get my drift.

(I don't mind it with Poland because Poland was a highly important country throughout European history. Poland is a Civ that should always been included, though their inclusion in the base game is a bit iffy.)

Personally, I like Canada in Civ 6, I would not want to see them (or Australia for that matter) take up precious Civilization slots that could've instead gone to a more inspired choice. Georgia, Gran Colombia and Mapuche won't. Neither should Canada.

 

[Zaarin]

Except that Dido didn't verifiably exist - a problem I have also have with Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh verifiably existed. He was not verifiably one-third divine nor did he verifiably go on a quest for immortality. I've gradually shifted my position on Dido's existence from possible to probable, though I still think the historical woman may have been conflated with a goddess--her name still sounds very much like a divine epithet to me. Of all Civ6's mythical and semi-mythical leaders, I'm most skeptical about Tomyris and Kupe.

 

[Patine]

Canada was included because
1) Canada hadn't been included in Civ before,
2) Firaxis needed a civ specialized in Emergencies to sell their new mechanic 3) Firaxis needed a peaceful civ specialized in Dip (opposed to Hungary, who are a warlike Diplomacy civ)
3) Publicity for the Canadian market

Of those three points, only the third remains as a viable point towards Canada's inclusion in future installment. Canada's continued persistance in Civ 7 and beyond will mostly be because of pandering and greed, which are reasons I dont sympathize with, if you get my drift.

I don't mind them as a one-off inclusion but I would not want to see them (or Australia for that matter) take up precious Civilization slots that could've instead gone to a more inspired choice. Georgia and Mapuche won't. Neither should Canada.

Mind, you, this is such a small issue to overreact over. I wasn't trying, nor have any intention, to start a fight, but I sense a certain degree of inexplicable anger.

Gilgamesh verifiably existed. He was not verifiably one-third divine nor did he verifiably go on a quest for immortality. I've gradually shifted my position on Dido's existence from possible to probable, though I still think the historical woman may have been conflated with a goddess--her name still sounds very much like a divine epithet to me. Of all Civ6's mythical and semi-mythical leaders, I'm most skeptical about Tomyris and Kupe.

I don't know. Before we know it, we'll have Agamemnon of the Greeks, Romulus of the Romans, Arthur Pendragon of the English, Arjuna Pandhava of the Indians, Jimmu Tenno of the Japanese, and Shu the Canal-Builder of the Chinese, or so I almost fear... :S

 

[Lord Lakely]

Mind, you, this is such a small issue to overreact over. I wasn't trying, nor have any intention, to start a fight, but I sense a certain degree of inexplicable anger.

Spillover bitterness from Assyria getting sidelined in Civ 6. Apologies if I came off a bit aggro.

 

[Zaarin]

I don't know. Before we know it, we'll have Agamemnon of the Greeks, Romulus of the Romans, Arthur Pendragon of the English, Arjuna Pandhava of the Indians, Jimmu Tenno of the Japanese, and Shu the Canal-Builder of the Chinese, or so I almost fear... :S

To clarify my position, I'm not fond of mythical leaders. There's almost always a better option, and I think it's pretty well known that I think Civ6's Sumerian civilization is abhorrent. I was just pointing out that we do have independent evidence of Gilgamesh's existence in the form of a cylinder seal; it is also attested he built the walls of Uruk. Like Arthur, the mythical Gilgamesh was probably more important than the historical Gilgamesh, but he did exist. I still would have preferred Gudea or Naram-Sin or even Kuĝ-bau.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Mahavihara UI for Anuradhapura seems likely.


Celsus or Mari?

Not to be that guy but a second Sinhalese religious city state from Sri Lanka seems ill conceived, especially one like Anuradhapura which historically marks the beginning of Sinhalese rule in the historically Tamil north.

To choose Anuradhapura rather than Jaffna to represent the Northern portion of Sri Lanka would feel a) redundant, since there would be two religious Sinhalese Sri Lankan CS and b) kinda reductive. Jaffna as a trade city state makes far more sense to represent Northern Sri Lanka as it would represent the Tamil population, the historically autonomous north (think Kingdom of Jaffna).

I think picking a historically Buddhist Nepali site would make sense, so perhaps not Kathmandu as a historically hindu site, but perhaps a different option.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Who says it's going to be a CS improvement? Maybe the Mahavihara will be a new Religious tenet.

 

[Kimiimaro]

(Except I want Maria Theresa back for Austria please and thank you. )

Joseph II isn't a bad choice either, you know. Plus, he's her son

 

[Zaarin]

Joseph II isn't a bad choice either, you know. Plus, he's her son

Maria Theresa or bust.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Maria Theresa or bust.

What, do you not want a leader who had such a burning passion for enlightenment that he issued two reforms a day on average and banned burials in coffins for some time to save wood?

 

[Zaarin]

banned burials in coffins for some time to save wood?

Ah, so vampires are his fault.

 

[8housesofelixir]

What, do you not want a leader who had such a burning passion for enlightenment that he issued two reforms a day on average and banned burials in coffins for some time to save wood?

Why does a lot of Portuguese monarchs sound like the central figure of a Latin American dictator novel.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Gilgamesh verifiably existed. He was not verifiably one-third divine nor did he verifiably go on a quest for immortality. I've gradually shifted my position on Dido's existence from possible to probable, though I still think the historical woman may have been conflated with a goddess--her name still sounds very much like a divine epithet to me. Of all Civ6's mythical and semi-mythical leaders, I'm most skeptical about Tomyris and Kupe.

I fully expect a person like Kupe existed, like a Leif Erickson of the South Pacific. But as with all cultures without writing, the tales of his exploits became exaggerated with retelling.

 

[notNamed]

I fully expect a person like Kupe existed, like a Leif Erickson of the South Pacific. But as with all cultures without writing, the tales of his exploits became exaggerated with retelling.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Look at Lech, Czech and Rus or Dan and Angul and similar folks in Europe. People didn't start asking where they came from in 21st century. Nor did they pen it all down on the spot and according to a single consistent legend. Just like with Kupe.

 

[Jeppetto]

There's a great firewall which could be a science-version of the great wall.

I can imagine the visual side - a giant line of green fire releasing zeroes and ones into air surrounding your city that burns all Spies who go across it.

Who says it's going to be a CS improvement? Maybe the Mahavihara will be a new Religious tenet.

I am glad someone mentoined this, I also figured, since we already have Unique Unit from Warrior Monks and Unique Buildings have their own category, why not also Unique Improvement attached to a Belief.

I fully expect a person like Kupe existed, like a Leif Erickson of the South Pacific. But as with all cultures without writing, the tales of his exploits became exaggerated with retelling.

What you mean to say is that one day he took his entire tribe wife and children and sailed away crossed a river across the ocean 50 meters out of the village to find a brand new island interestingly looking acre of land he would name Land of the Long White Cloud Privately Owned Parcel of Excesivelly Wide Atmospherical Phenomenon?

 

[Kimiimaro]

Why does a lot of Portuguese monarchs sound like the central figure of a Latin American dictator novel.

Joseph II was an Austrian, not a Portuguese ruler

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Gilgamesh verifiably existed. He was not verifiably one-third divine nor did he verifiably go on a quest for immortality. I've gradually shifted my position on Dido's existence from possible to probable, though I still think the historical woman may have been conflated with a goddess--her name still sounds very much like a divine epithet to me. Of all Civ6's mythical and semi-mythical leaders, I'm most skeptical about Tomyris and Kupe.

Your skepticism about Tomyris (or Thomyris, or Tomiri, or Tomris) is largely unfounded. Herodotus, Xenophon, and the now-lost-but-frequently-quoted-by-others Roman historian Troginus all mention her in slightly different contexts, so either she was a real Scythian 'queen' or her name was very popular amongst the Scythians (not impossible: 'Kleopatra' was so common among the Macedonians that Alexander's sister and his niece were both 'Cleopatras', and the famous Ptomemaic one was number 7 in her family: reusing names in Royal Families is nothing new)
Of course, she was not Queen of the Scythians - that appears to have been an invention of Shakespeare, who calls her that in Henry VI (part 1), one of his earlier plays. Herodotus and Xenophon are both specific that she led the Massagetae, one of several Scythian groups, and Xenophon does not agree with Herodotus that she was a 'war leader', or that she killed Cyrus.
All of which, as usual in leaders that have been famous for any length of time, means that specifics about what she may or may not have accomplished are open to interpretation and revision, but the fact of her existence is not, IMHO.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Spillover bitterness from Assyria getting sidelined in Civ 6. Apologies if I came off a bit aggro.

If you want to blame anybody you should probably blame Gilgamesh.

I fully expect a person like Kupe existed, like a Leif Erickson of the South Pacific. But as with all cultures without writing, the tales of his exploits became exaggerated with retelling.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure somebody had to found New Zealand first.

I am glad someone mentoined this, I also figured, since we already have Unique Unit from Warrior Monks and Unique Buildings have their own category, why not also Unique Improvement attached to a Belief.

At first I was going to comment that all the worship beliefs have been buildings but I guess that a unique improvement could be a possibility for another belief since you mention the Warrior Monks.
Though considering it's very specific it sounds like it probably is a city-state improvement. I'm assuming it might be a Bangladesh one or Kathmandu considering we already have a Sri Lankan city-state and India is a civ.

 

[sweetbrown89]

Right, but my point was that the Cree as represented in-game are the Plains Cree, which makes them much closer to the Shoshone, culturally and geographically, than to the Haudenosaunee. There is no representation of the Innu, Atimekw, or East Cree in the civ's design.

Alright, but then that still leaves open another North American Civ for last, since Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) or Shoshone, depending still need coverage. Maya and Aztecs don’t count, since they already have direct representation from V.

 

[Zaarin]

Your skepticism about Tomyris (or Thomyris, or Tomiri, or Tomris) is largely unfounded. Herodotus, Xenophon, and the now-lost-but-frequently-quoted-by-others Roman historian Troginus all mention her in slightly different contexts, so either she was a real Scythian 'queen' or her name was very popular amongst the Scythians (not impossible: 'Kleopatra' was so common among the Macedonians that Alexander's sister and his niece were both 'Cleopatras', and the famous Ptomemaic one was number 7 in her family: reusing names in Royal Families is nothing new)
Of course, she was not Queen of the Scythians - that appears to have been an invention of Shakespeare, who calls her that in Henry VI (part 1), one of his earlier plays. Herodotus and Xenophon are both specific that she led the Massagetae, one of several Scythian groups, and Xenophon does not agree with Herodotus that she was a 'war leader', or that she killed Cyrus.
All of which, as usual in leaders that have been famous for any length of time, means that specifics about what she may or may not have accomplished are open to interpretation and revision, but the fact of her existence is not, IMHO.

I'm not so much skeptical of her existence as skeptical of her having killed Cyrus.

Alright, but then that still leaves open another North American Civ for last, since Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) or Shoshone, depending still need coverage. Maya and Aztecs don’t count, since they already have direct representation from V.

I'm hopeful for this as well.