[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[SirMediocrity]

ngl the 3/8 Portuguese in me really wants to see Portugal in the game. At the same time, the Western New Yorker in me wants to see the Iroquois in the game.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Well, it is just one big chunk of land, so we identify it as just 1 continent. I know that the same rules do not apply to Europe as it is in Asia (and Europe, Asia and Africa are connected).

If you say it because of the cultures inside, well, we are very aware of the differences between the groups. We base the differences on nationalities, but it is know that the different indigenous people are not the same.
We know that the mapuches in the south were completely different to the mexicas in the north, or the peaceful Tainos were different from the Inuits.

It is only that they all were "natives americans" or “Indians” (in old times), the same when you say "Europeans". The majority of persons knows a little bit the differences between the north europeans and the one from the south or east, but they are all "Europeans".

I think one reason nowadays in Europe we consider America as one and single continent it's because, culturally, all nations came from the same european cultural background. I know it's a really big approximation and probably a false one, but when you have an entire subcontinent that speaks only two different languages (if we don't take into account the Guyanas), we can englobe them under the big cultural approximative umbrella of "Latinos", while the North is just the Anglosphere. At least, I see the cultural differences between North and South America in the same light I see cultural differences between Scandinavians and Iberians: not the same, but still sharing a very broad cultural and philosophical background. It's not like the differences between Asia and Europe, where both Histories evolved in parallel but with very different basis. Having Socrates or Confucius as one of the Big Thinkers of your cultural background will change a lot.

(That's also why I consider the cultural group of Mediterranean intead of European/African because the Mediterranea shared a lot of intertwined cultural backgrounds, and a Morrocan is closer culturally for me to a Greek than to a Zulu).

But if America hasn't been colonized that much, and if local cultures and people would have evolved along european trading posts for example, we would have probably divided Americas into two separated continents, because South, Medium or North Native Americans have as much in common than French and Khmers.

But, for now, the Americas are landmasses where the cultural background is European: Christianity is the major religion, prominent languages are Spanish, Portuguese, English and French (all European), and the philosophies (democracy, capitalism, sense of self) all came from the same European Ideas. The only reason the Americas aren't blobbed into Europe as a cultural continent is because of the sheer fricking big ocean between the two.

(This is a very naive and neophyte analysis of this separation, if I'm wrong on anything, do not hesitate to correct me please)

 

[PhoenicianGold]

So I did it. And it’s messy (like super messy and I’m sorry). But I did my best to parse out areas of City-States (and a marginally OK job at it) that Firaxis is looking at in terms of “cultural importance” (I use the term loosely) of which areas of the world they consider...“worthy” enough of an inclusion into the games.

I don’t think I can pull out any guarantees, but they seem to be focusing on areas where fans are drawing more cultural significance — like the Italian city-states, “Southern (and Central) Asia” (India & the ‘stans), or West Africa

NOTE: I forgot to add on Bohemia to Prague / Czech Republic

You also forgot Morocco/Fez.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Vietnam is out people! Click on this thread.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Observation:

As of the end of NFP, we will still not have no city-states representing Austria, Denmark, or Assyria.

I think at the very least we can expect another city-state expansion next year, even if we don't get any more civs.

 

[Zaarin]

I understand your criticism is coming from a historical point of view, but from the game design perspective, they are great.

I have to disagree. My complaints are not solely from a historical perspective, though I also have that in mind. Out of all the civs released so far only the Maya have actually been fun to play. The entire pass has felt phoned in to me.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Observation:

As of the end of NFP, we will still not have no city-states representing Austria, Denmark, or Assyria.

I think at the very least we can expect another city-state expansion next year, even if we don't get any more civs.

Lisbon still needs to be possibly be replaced. I think there is a possibility it could go to Copenhagen.

 

[DWilson]

Lisbon still needs to be possibly be replaced. I think there is a possibility it could go to Copenhagen.

Well, if we get Portugal

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Lisbon still needs to be possibly be replaced. I think there is a possibility it could go to Copenhagen.

It literally means "Merchant's Harbor" or "Barter's Haven," so the bonus would translate well.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well, if we get Portugal

Hence the word possibly.

 

[DWilson]

Hence the word possibly.

One supposes I might have read a bit too quickly

 

[Ticio]

I think one reason nowadays in Europe we consider America as one and single continent it's because, culturally, all nations came from the same european cultural background. I know it's a really big approximation and probably a false one, but when you have an entire subcontinent that speaks only two different languages (if we don't take into account the Guyanas), we can englobe them under the big cultural approximative umbrella of "Latinos", while the North is just the Anglosphere. At least, I see the cultural differences between North and South America in the same light I see cultural differences between Scandinavians and Iberians: not the same, but still sharing a very broad cultural and philosophical background. It's not like the differences between Asia and Europe, where both Histories evolved in parallel but with very different basis. Having Socrates or Confucius as one of the Big Thinkers of your cultural background will change a lot.

(That's also why I consider the cultural group of Mediterranean intead of European/African because the Mediterranea shared a lot of intertwined cultural backgrounds, and a Morrocan is closer culturally for me to a Greek than to a Zulu).

But if America hasn't been colonized that much, and if local cultures and people would have evolved along european trading posts for example, we would have probably divided Americas into two separated continents, because South, Medium or North Native Americans have as much in common than French and Khmers.

But, for now, the Americas are landmasses where the cultural background is European: Christianity is the major religion, prominent languages are Spanish, Portuguese, English and French (all European), and the philosophies (democracy, capitalism, sense of self) all came from the same European Ideas. The only reason the Americas aren't blobbed into Europe as a cultural continent is because of the sheer fricking big ocean between the two.

(This is a very naive and neophyte analysis of this separation, if I'm wrong on anything, do not hesitate to correct me please)

I find your analysis very spot on! I think you have very good points. For sure, if not because of the Pacific Ocean, both continents would be pretty much as the Europeans from the Mediterranean; all different but with very strong cultural tides (similar languages, similar social behaving and laws originated since the romans).

I cannot speak for other countries or cultures, but I always believed that, in Spain, it was described as just one continent as it was just one big territory fully claimed by them.
In fact, when you check the Spanish colonial laws they were 2 categories of "people" (so to speak);

one for Europeans.

one for Americans (whole continent).

So all natives Americans were just one group/block inside the different groups that were part of the king's subjects (Portugueses, Castillians, Napoletans, Aragonese, Ducht, and so on).
In addition, having this group under the same law from Patagonia to almost reaching the north part of today USA created this perception of just one continent. I think we have a close example when anyone thinks of Latin America as a whole... they are very different countries, but it is easier to put a simplistic label on them. You speak another language than English? latino!

I think the majority of Europeans have this view of America, but in USA is different because is a way to make the difference between them and the "latino America" part. Just like, we do the same in Europe depending on cultural proximity (I bet everyone do the same around the World). Now that USA's point of view is more preeminent, it is "exported" to the rest of the world.
Conclusion, I always thought that having a claim of all the continent (absurd claim to be honest...), and issuing the same law for all their natives inhabitants made the cultural perception of just one group of people. Heck, it is the same view I had prior in the chat and never tohught about it before!!

P.S: I could never correct you, as I do not know much about the topic either hahahaha! I fact everything I just said is pure personal thinking!
Sorry for the long post!

 

[bbbt]

I have to disagree. My complaints are not solely from a historical perspective, though I also have that in mind. Out of all the civs released so far only the Maya have actually been fun to play. The entire pass has felt phoned in to me.

I personally feel like they've been pretty creative with the new Civs. I've also found Bull Moose Teddy - with his appeal and National Park based strategies; Ethopia - with a faith-based trade and improvement play; and Babylon's eureka chaining science a lot of fun and different play. Celts are pretty creative as well, though they haven't done as much for me. Byzantium and Gran Colombia have been more straightforward/meh for me, but I'm also less of a domination player in Civ. Gathering Storm had the Maori as an extremely creative design, but outside of them it's a similar mix of more creative and less creative. And both are leagues better than Rise and Fall's "every casus belli is a UA" designs.

 

[Zaarin]

I've also found Bull Moose Teddy - with his appeal and National Park based strategies; Ethopia - with a faith-based trade and improvement play; and Babylon's eureka chaining science a lot of fun and different play.

I won a Culture Victory before researching Castles with Ethiopia by building nothing but Rock-hewn Churches. That's not fun. Ethiopia's design is interesting on paper but game-breaking in practice. I did enjoy Bull Moose Teddy. I think Babylon has replaced Sumeria as my least favorite design in the game.

With the exception of the Maya, all of the NFP civs have basically been "Press Start to Win" designs, which is probably why the Maya are the only new civ I've particularly enjoyed. I don't particularly play video games for the challenge, but I also don't want to win before I've even started establishing my empire's infrastructure.

 

[Josephias]

But to be fair, the Cothon and the Suguba are the only two that look drastically different from their standard versions though, but I do admit the red Observatory + its blue buildings are rather off-putting, and from what I've seen, Vietnamese Encampment is just a regular Encampment that has a protective shell of walls.

I think having specific building models is a bit over the top for a UD, as it kind of steals the representation for UB, altough I'm fine some exceptions (Cothon) really needing it.
On the other hand, i think more UD could have gone with the "Ikanda" treatment: not really changing the models, but modifying the color pallete to make them match the Unique District specific structure. In example, I'd have loved the library and university for the observatory did not had "white" walls, but a color more akin to the observatory itself.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Ethiopia's design is interesting on paper but game-breaking in practice.

Ethiopia's exponential faith growth (I wonder how many people realized that their faith bonus is exponential) is another game-breaking design. Playing Ethiopia and improving resources around you as many as possible, will literally offer you a faith income as if you found a religion. Rock Churches and trade routes are just icing on the top.

It is a fun design, but a massive power creep over all the faith civs before Ethiopia. Not to say that without this ability Ethiopia is still a strong civ, having this ability is basically a win-more situation.

 

[Zaarin]

I think having specific building models is a bit over the top for a UD, as it kind of steals the representation for UB, altough I'm fine some exceptions (Cothon) really needing it.

I'm in the opposite camp. In Civ7, I think all districts should reflect regional architecture and UDs should go over-the-top in how different they look. I have no problem with stealing UBs' thunder because they're boring in the first place; I wouldn't mind seeing all civs in Civ7 have either a UD or UI as they're just more visually interesting.

 

[Inawordyes]

As it stands, geographically-wise, gender-wise and new vs vet-wise, based on previous patterns we are probably getting the Haudenosaunee/Iroquois led by Jigonhsasee, (vet civ from NA w/ female leader, which preserves the ratio that we’ve seen for all three cats from the post-release DLC run + the 2 xpacs) which leaves Portugal as a glaring omission since it’s a staple civ, so even if a “FFP” wasn’t as extensive as the NFP, I think it’s still likely that we may see another small set of DLCs civ additions to at least get Portugal in there before the true end of development

 

[Josephias]

I'm in the opposite camp. In Civ7, I think all districts should reflect regional architecture and UDs should go over-the-top in how different they look. I have no problem with stealing UBs' thunder because they're boring in the first place; I wouldn't mind seeing all civs in Civ7 have either a UD or UI as they're just more visually interesting.

If you remove the UB, then I agree, but I think this step has to go first before giving each speciality district its own look.
And yes, having regional versions of "standard" districts would be also neat.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It literally means "Merchant's Harbor" or "Barter's Haven," so the bonus would translate well.

I never knew the etymology of the name. That would translate well with harbor meaning "haven".
My initial idea was that the Danish Vikings could just protect you but your idea sounds better.

As it stands, geographically-wise, gender-wise and new vs vet-wise, based on previous patterns we are probably getting the Haudenosaunee/Iroquois led by Jigonhsasee, (vet civ from NA w/ female leader, which preserves the ratio that we’ve seen for all three cats from the post-release DLC run + the 2 xpacs) which leaves Portugal as a glaring omission since it’s a staple civ, so even if a “FFP” wasn’t as extensive as the NFP, I think it’s still likely that we may see another small set of DLCs civ additions to at least get Portugal in there before the true end of development

The fact that Portugal is a glaring omission is why I'm not discounting it just yet.

Not going to lie Maria the Mad would fit Victoria's animations pretty well.