[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

because numerous HRE contemporaries saw themselves as residents of their city states and nothing more?

And I’m yet to get a reliable source from YOU saying that the mughals thought they were the mongol empire. So until you do that, your claim is an outlandish lie.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Well ... I have read the recent pos

HRE pretended to be Rome SPIRITUAL succesor, as well as Principality of Moscow as "Third Rome" ... trying to state a conti

It was a matter of legity, not a literal accou

I agree on that, they have the Religious Rightness to be Roman
The Otoman Empire have the Conquer rightneouss
And Charles Magne have the Pope Rightness...

Everyone have their own argue to be the Roman Emperor.

Modern Age Europe I can see 3 Roman Empire at same time, all attacking Poland. Poor Poland.

Have you considered that it's YOUR "Afro-Ideas" that are not being well accepted in online forums?

I mean, I can go on an online forum for Cat lovers and write a piece on "How to get more intimate with your Cat" only to be vilified as some kind of sexual weirdo by supposedly lovers of Cats. I mean, can you imagine? What a bunch of reactionary pricks.



I think I'm Roman, therefore I'm Roman.

So, am I Roman?

I guess if you can argue with your all community and all your neighborhood also believe you are all roman, BUM. Roman is alive again.
To be the Rome Emperor you need to be able to raise an Army.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ostrogoths: their capital is Ravenna (thus they would be in a less crowded place between Germany, Hungary and Rome), while they match the time period of the height of the Byzantine Empire. At the height of the Ostrogothic Kingdom, they also controlled the whole of Italy.

I'm not sure how that is any better than a proposed Italy Civ, if Ravenna is in modern day Italy as well, when it comes to TSL.

If these people born at a Seminole community, have the Seminole heritage.
Why you, as a White-Florida-Man don't allow they call they self Seminole?

For me it look like the Macedonia-Greek Issue.

Macedonia can't call they self Macedonia because it don't fit in Greek understanding of History.
Macedonians don't have a name for they self, because Greek don't allow any name.

I really can't understand why have people who understand the world as that.

Quote me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure @Zaarin has said he has Native American ancestry. Please just stop making crazy assumptions and derailing this thread.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I guess if you can argue with your all community and all your neighborhood also believe you are all roman, BUM. Roman is alive again.
To be the Rome Emperor you need to be able to raise an Army.

Nothing you say makes any sense

 

[PhilBowles]

I really don't understand why the personal believe of itself can be considered as ilusion for us, who isn't there.

I don't want somenone in the year 4500 saying it was an ilusion I'm Brazilian.
I would want to be Brazilian forever, even after my death. If I'm saying today I'm Brazilian, I should be Brazilian even if Brazil fall some day.

It's an Enlightenment truism that facts are to be valued for their own sake, but looked at historically this is actually a rather strange idea: it has no utilitarian value and, as it's commonly difficult to determine what really happened in many periods of history, it's hard to get definitive answers. As a scientist I for one am happy with a worldview that sees intellectual curiosity as an intrinsic good, but at the same time I realise it's not the way most societies have treated history - it's been a case of building national myths or legitimising rules, utilitarian functions that serve a purpose even when we know they're not factually correct.

Even today there's debate over whether history teaching should be as factually accurate as possible or whether it should promote unifying ideas of national identity even when those aren't necessarily true. It's intellectually satisfying to be aware that Richard III seems to have been a good king who is unlikely to have murdered anyone, or that Lucretia Borgia never poisoned anybody - but it doesn't actually matter to anybody living in practical terms that Richard is stereotyped as a hunchbacked villain who killed children, or that Lucretia is the punchline of jokes about Renaissance Italy.

Even factual retellings of history are themselves often highly selective to support a specific national focus: the British, whose establishment has traditionally feared instability, have always eagerly portrayed the French Revolution as a meaningless genocidal Terror. The French, I've heard, celebrate 'libertie, fraternite, egalite' and pretty much ignore the Terror completely, because the Revolution forms a founding myth of the modern state.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Now I understand the Rome thing. In Russia/HRE/Fascist Italy the people didn’t think themselves romans, just the leader

@AntSou as this guy said, it is also important the community recognition.

 

[AntSou]

I guess if you can argue if you are all community and all your neighborhood also believe you are all roman, BUM. Roman is alive again.
To be the Rome Emperor you need to be able to raise an Army.

Any army? Or does it need to be a Roman army?

Can I give them assault rifles and mortars though? I'll keep the fancy helmets, I promise.

Nothing you say makes any sense

 

[Henri Christophe]

I'm not sure how that is any better than a proposed Italy Civ, if Ravenna is in modern day Italy as well, when it comes to TSL.


Quote me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure @Zaarin has said he has Native American ancestry. Please just stop making crazy assumptions and derailing this thread.

Sorry if I missunderstand what you and @Zaarin want to say.

But I still my question, what is the most controversial thing about the Seminole.
If they can be lead by a mix-race Afro-Seminole as Negro Abraham.
I guess all my argues will be pointless if you say it is not a problem at all. If you agree with that, I will need to apologize, because I really miss-understand you.

 

[Guynemer]

There's, like, an entire History Off-Topic forum for stuff like this.

 

[Henri Christophe]

There's, like, an entire History Off-Topic forum for stuff like this.

Sorry again to be controversial.
But I start making sugestion to civs.

The controversia start when I said Akbar can be an alternative leader to Mongol Empire, because I guess Akbar think about him self as Mongol Emperor.
And it is going a discussion about sources...

Sorry to miss the point.

I will back to the thread.

Negro Abraham lead Seminole Civilization
Akbar alternative leader to Mongol Empire.
Justinian and Charles Magne alternative leader to Roman Empire.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

There's, like, an entire History Off-Topic forum for stuff like this.

we were honestly vibing talking about possible civs until we were accused of being apologists for racist white historians and were told that Akbar thought he was a emperor of Mongolia, that the HRE was legitimately the Roman Empire and that you have to read history only by historians in the language of the people you want to study or else it doesn’t count (guess no one is allowed to know about the Olmecs)

 

[Zaarin]

Sorry if I missunderstand what you and @Zaarin want to say.

But I still my question, what is the most controversial thing about the Seminole.
If they can be lead by a mix-race Afro-Seminole as Negro Abraham.
I guess all my argues will be pointless if you say it is not a problem at all. If you agree with that, I will need to apologize, because I really miss-understand you.

Because what you're suggesting is erasing Native American identity to promote black identity. Native Americans have faced more than enough cultural erasure. There are black Seminoles, yes, but the majority of Seminoles are not black or even mixed black.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Because what you're suggesting is erasing Native American identity to promote black identity. Native Americans have faced more than enough cultural erasure. There are black Seminoles, yes, but the majority of Seminoles are not black or even mixed black.

No no no!
The game have a Leader, an Unique Unit and an Unique Improvement.
I guess I don't start well in last threat, I didn't say it in the right approach.

I want the leader of the Seminole as Negro Abraham.
But still the Unique Unit and Unique Improvement to we celebrate also the native-seminole-heritage.
I love mix races because we can celebrate two heritages at same time. I like it.

Please, English isn't my first language, some stuffs I'm struggling to say. Really sorry for that too.

I don't want erase any Native. I love the Natives, also I love the Black.
And I just think the Black-Seminole the most amazing Nation I ever found in America history.


Also it is impossible to erase Black-American heritage of this game because it is already erased.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I love mix races because we can celebrate two heritages at same time. I like it.

Fetishization of people who are mixed race is still racism, and in fact, a big problem.

Because what you're suggesting is erasing Native American identity to promote black identity. Native Americans have faced more than enough cultural erasure. There are black Seminoles, yes, but the majority of Seminoles are not black or even mixed black.

THIS

also, if you subscribe to exclusively history with no basis in fact, let me assist you in some information about the mughals:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal-Mongol_genealogy

The mughals were direct descendents of both the Timurids and Genghis Khan, as Babur was a descendent of Chagatai as well as Timur.

They laid claim to this geneology, but never identified themselves as Mongolian or the true successor to Genghis’s heritage.

The mughals viewed themselves as strictly Persian Muslims who ruled over the Mughal empire and the sultanates of initially Kabul, then Lahore, and finally, at their peak, the sultanate of Agra

 

[Henri Christophe]

Fetishization of people who are mixed race is still racism, and in fact, a big problem.

If you agree with that, I would say I'm racist. Because the thing call my attention in the Seminole is their mix-heritage.

And better than the Moskitos and Garifunas (the other 2 mix race nations of Native and Black I founded)
The Seminoles have a great war in Florida and even won battles against Andrew Jackson.

REALLY!
I was astonished! They are amazing as they are.

also, if you subscribe to exclusively history with no basis in fact, let me assist you in some information about the mughals:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal-Mongol_genealogy

The mughals were direct descendents of both the Timurids and Genghis Khan, as Babur was a descendent of Chagatai as well as Timur.

They laid claim to this geneology, but never identified themselves as Mongolian or the true successor to Genghis’s heritage.

The mughals viewed themselves as strictly Persian Muslims who ruled over the Mughal empire and the sultanates of initially Kabul, then Lahore, and finally, at their peak, the sultanate of Agra

Thank you for your source, late I will look it well

 

[Thenewwwguy]

If you agree with that, I would say I'm racist. Because the thing call my attention in the Seminole is their mix-heritage.

And better than the Moskitos and Garifunas (the other 2 mix race nations of Native and Black I founded)
The Seminoles have a great war in Florida and even won battles against Andrew Jackson

You make it sound as if all, if not at least a majority or large minority of seminoles are mixed

that’s not true, like @Zaarin pointed out, only about 2000 are.

I hope you understand why what you said is deeply problematic, regardless.

 

[Henri Christophe]

You make it sound as if all, if not at least a majority or large minority of seminoles are mixed

that’s not true, like @Zaarin pointed out, only about 2000 are.

I hope you understand why what you said is deeply problematic, regardless.

I really don't understand this way to put people as numbers.
Once in Servia I read a paper saying just 8% of Brazilians are Black.
Here in Brazil, the governement say 45% of Brazilians are Black.
That mean 37% of Brazilians are Statistical error

But, this game is also a Historical game. Ok if just ONE seminole can be considered Black by Statiscal Census.
When they fight against Andrew Jackson had Native Seminole, Have full Black, have Mix Race Black Seminole and also Spaniards all togethers.

We need to remember, at the time, the Seminoles and Blacks don't know what a race was.
We can think about races today, but it isn't thing to they at the time.

 

[Ziad]

Not enough Hannibal for Phoenicia posts tbh.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

We need to remember, at the time, the Seminoles and Blacks don't know what a race was.
We can think about races today, but it isn't thing to they at the time.

in the 1800s? when the seminoles were being murdered on the basis of them being natives and the black people were hiding in the seminole nation to avoid returning to slavery? I think race was unfortunately acutely award to them

the idea that people who were not white didn’t have a concept of race is a colonial myth to justify colonizing ‘backwards’ people because they didn’t understand their own perceived backwardness.

You’re continuing to prove how problematic and racist your takes are.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Lithuania is mashed into Poland right now (see: Lithuanian Union as the LA for Jadwiga)

It's not really an argument. Both Scotland and England CUA is related to Great Britain, a state when the kingdoms and wrowns where united. Scottish Enlightment happened well after the union, and England's CUA is literally called Pax Britannica, hence directly linking it to Great Britain, and Great Britain had Scotlad in it.

So I don't see that having a civ with "Polish-Lithuanian Union" for Poland would necessarily meant the end of Lithuania, especially if the devs managed to have fun, unique and engaging gameplays for Lithuania.