[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

but for a fan who isn’t big into civ, or buys only what he likes in terms of civs, if you don’t offer the good civs now, it won’t sell

They did though. They offered Maya and Ethiopia upfront. The aim is to get early adopters before the full product is revealed.

The point is not to get ppl to buy a second season, imo, it’s just to have one.

Again, I think it is difficult to tell with just Maya and Ethiopia whether the devs wanted to wrap up development with NFP, or had more than 8 civs worth of content they wanted to develop over multiple seasons. We really can't know how much more content they have up their sleeves (if any) until we see more of what NFP holds.

But, again, if I were the devs and I wanted to extend sales as long as possible, I would withhold staples to keep the players buying "filler" content in the interim. And then backload the final release cycle with returning civs and characters that the players will buy anyway even if by that point their design is half-assed. Why would most players buy a second season full of the Apache, Berbers, Oman, Bulgaria, and Burma if they already got everything they wanted in season 1? The solution to force the playerbase to accept change is deliberate withholding sprinkled with occasional returns to comfort and validation. Just like how no one wanted anything in R&F, but in retrospect it still fleshed out the game in a way that wouldn't have happened if we only got instant gratification with the GS civs.
 
They did though. They offered Maya and Ethiopia upfront. The aim is to get early adopters before the full product is revealed.



Again, I think it is difficult to tell with just Maya and Ethiopia whether the devs wanted to wrap up development with NFP, or had more than 8 civs worth of content they wanted to develop over multiple seasons. We really can't know how much more content they have up their sleeves (if any) until we see more of what NFP holds.

But, again, if I were the devs and I wanted to extend sales as long as possible, I would withhold staples to keep the players buying "filler" content in the interim. And then backload the final release cycle with returning civs and characters that the players will buy anyway even if by that point their design is half-assed. Why would most players buy a second season full of the Apache, Berbers, Oman, Bulgaria, and Burma if they already got everything they wanted in season 1? The solution to force the playerbase to accept change is deliberate withholding sprinkled with occasional returns to comfort and validation. Just like how no one wanted anything in R&F, but in retrospect it still fleshed out the game in a way that wouldn't have happened if we only got instant gratification with the GS civs.
I mean RF also had some core civs like Mongolia, Zulu and Korea, as well as the oft-requested Georgia

the issue is if NF doesn’t sell well, it will be blamed on the style of release and they’ll just stop. It needs to sell sell if we want a second pack

The Kingdom of Hawaii - Kamehameha the Great

UA - Volcanic Archipelago

Volcanoes give a major adjacency bonus to all specially districts. Volcanoes within Hawaii’s borders have a greater chance to fertilize land, and these volcanoes can give faith and culture to fertilized tiles

UU - War Canoe
Swordsman replacement unlocked at shipbuilding. +4 combat strength. Does not take combat penalties when attacking across a river, or when attacking a land unit from the sea. Does not loose combat strength when embarked.

UI - Heiau
Shrine replacement. +1 culture, +1 faith. Tiles fertilized by volcanoes in this city gain +1 faith

LUA - Unifier of Hawaii
Kamehameha gains +3 combat strength in cities within 10 tiles of his own non-occupied cities. If the city is a city-state, he gains +5 combat strength instead. If the city is a free city, he gains +10 combat strength instead.
I don’t fully understand the war canoe unit. Is it naval or land melee? why would a canoe be a land unit replacing swordsman?

I’d also prefer the heiau to give tourism after conservation and the UA to have a culture bent

Liliuokalani would be an even better fit than Kamehameha I because she was an avid poet and musician, and would gel with Hawaii in general a lot more imo
 
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I mean RF also had some core civs like Mongolia, Zulu and Korea, as well as the oft-requested Georgia
Also R&F was the only way you could get Chandragupta and have India lead by someone else.
Plus the polders.
I also personally like Scotland.

Even if it does well will there be a second season or is just a way of knowing if this is the direction they will take for future installments?
With this pass we will reach exactly 50 civs. Would Civs 58 be too much or would they have less Civs and maybe more content like the Vikings DLC did?
 
Also R&F was the only way you could get Chandragupta and have India lead by someone else.
Plus the polders.
I also personally like Scotland.

Even if it does well will there be a second season or is just a way of knowing if this is the direction they will take for future installments?
With this pass we will reach exactly 50 civs. Even if there is a second season would 58 be too much or would they have less Civs and maybe more content like the Vikings DLC did?
honestly to me, the cast still feels pretty small. maybe that’s because a lot of civs aren’t civs i like playing as, but in general, i don’t know if there is a point when there’s too many. I don’t think we’ll hit it soon, at least
 
I don’t fully understand the war canoe unit. Is it naval or land melee? why would a canoe be a land unit replacing swordsman?

I’d also prefer the heiau to give tourism after conservation and the UA to have a culture bent

Liliuokalani would be an even better fit than Kamehameha I because she was an avid poet and musician, and would gel with Hawaii in general a lot more imo
What I was going for with the war canoe was something like swordsmen in a canoe, so it can fight both on land and in water.

maybe Liliuokalani would be better, I just know a lot more about kamehameha. (There’s an excellent extra credit history series about him)
 
honestly to me, the cast still feels pretty small. maybe that’s because a lot of civs aren’t civs i like playing as, but in general, i don’t know if there is a point when there’s too many. I don’t think we’ll hit it soon, at least
From a player's perspective I agree that 50 wouldn't be too many, especially if some of the Civs that I want aren't on it. :mischief:

I'd just be surprised if they wanted to go up to about 60 and basically add in almost 20 more than the previous version. We've already reached the number I at least thought they would get to.
 
I still think if the devs were smart they would have five or six new civs in New Frontier and save as many staples for the final season.

I think those of us expecting staples to be the mainstay of this release fully expect that New Frontier is the final season. Personally I'm a bit surprised Civ VII warranted this much final support, and likely is only getting it because there's an extra year to fill if the game has the same lifespan as Civ V. New Frontier is a safe experiment precisely because, success or failure, it's going to be the last content release for Civ VI.

If second seasons are the common failure you portray them as, Firaxis will be aware of this and may think that opting for a single-season final pass offers them the best of all worlds.
 
The Kingdom of Hawaii - Kamehameha the Great

UA - Volcanic Archipelago

Volcanoes give a major adjacency bonus to all specially districts. Volcanoes within Hawaii’s borders have a greater chance to fertilize land, and these volcanoes can give faith and culture to fertilized tiles

UU - War Canoe
Swordsman replacement unlocked at shipbuilding. +4 combat strength. Does not take combat penalties when attacking across a river, or when attacking a land unit from the sea. Does not loose combat strength when embarked.

UI - Heiau
Shrine replacement. +1 culture, +1 faith. Tiles fertilized by volcanoes in this city gain +1 faith

LUA - Unifier of Hawaii
Kamehameha gains +3 combat strength in cities within 10 tiles of his own non-occupied cities. If the city is a city-state, he gains +5 combat strength instead. If the city is a free city, he gains +10 combat strength instead.

I like this, especially the Civ ability regarding volcanoes! I would like to make a few edits tho:
  • Rename "Volcanic Archipelago" to "Children of Pele" (Pele is a diety of volcanoes in Hawaiian mythology)
  • Rename the War Canoe to Wa'a Kaulua (Could rework it to be the Kaimiloa)
  • Rework his leader ability and rename it to "Kānāwai Māmalahoe" (The Law of the Splintered Paddle). Rework it to where civilian units have some ability to avoid being captured/pillaged during war and maybe give his units combat bonuses near coasts or something.
  • Give Kamehameha a unique unit, the Koa (Renaissance Melee unit).
  • Great Unifier could be his agenda
Then again these are just my ideas, but yours sound really good too!
 
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If the Civ 5 Reborn team is really dedicated, then we may get any remaining leaders and Civs from Civ5 that are “leftovers” after NF is completed.

That may mean Hawai’i, Denmark and the Huns in Civ6 for whoever still wants them.

We definitely need to encourage that initiative through to the end.
 
I like this, especially the Civ ability regarding volcanoes! I would like to make a few edits tho:
  • Rename "Volcanic Archipelago" to "Children of Pele" (Pele is a diety of volcanoes in Hawaiian mythology)
  • Rename the War Canoe to Wa'a Kaulua
  • Rework his leader ability and rename it to "Kānāwai Māmalahoe" (The Law of the Splintered Paddle). Rework it to where civilian units have some ability to avoid being captured/pillaged during war and maybe give his units combat bonuses near coasts or something.
  • Give Kamehameha a unique unit, the Koa (Renaissance Melee unit).
  • Great Unifier could be his agenda
Then again these are just my ideas, but yours sound really good too!
yield bonuses on islands of 4 tiles or less would be pretty cool for hawaii too

If the Civ 5 Reborn team is really dedicated, then we may get any remaining leaders and Civs from Civ5 that are “leftovers” after NF is completed.

That may mean Hawai’i, Denmark and the Huns in Civ6 for whoever still wants them.

We definitely need to encourage that initiative through to the end.
hopefully the huns are given no ability to settle cities that would be better than settling random cities

and hopefully denmark is less viking focused cuz we have norway

i also wonder how deliverator will deal with seated leaders since standing is a big deal in civ 6
 
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yield bonuses on islands of 4 tiles or less would be pretty cool for hawaii too

Maybe some bonuses to reefs or jungles adjacent to coast tiles? Hawaii honestly has a ton of options.

Either way I see them as a culture/trade civ, maybe even domination under Kamehameha.
 
hopefully the huns are given no ability to settle cities that would be better than settling random cities
Honestly that should have been their ability in Civ 5 as the only way to get new cities is by capturing them.

and hopefully denmark is less viking focused cuz we have norway
And give them Norwegian Ski Infantry as their UU again. :lol:
 
The Kingdom of Hawaii - Kamehameha the Great

UA - Volcanic Archipelago

Volcanoes give a major adjacency bonus to all specially districts. Volcanoes within Hawaii’s borders have a greater chance to fertilize land, and these volcanoes can give faith and culture to fertilized tiles

UU - War Canoe
Swordsman replacement unlocked at shipbuilding. +4 combat strength. Does not take combat penalties when attacking across a river, or when attacking a land unit from the sea. Does not loose combat strength when embarked.

UI - Heiau
Shrine replacement. +1 culture, +1 faith. Tiles fertilized by volcanoes in this city gain +1 faith

LUA - Unifier of Hawaii
Kamehameha gains +3 combat strength in cities within 10 tiles of his own non-occupied cities. If the city is a city-state, he gains +5 combat strength instead. If the city is a free city, he gains +10 combat strength instead.
What I was going for with the war canoe was something like swordsmen in a canoe, so it can fight both on land and in water.

maybe Liliuokalani would be better, I just know a lot more about kamehameha. (There’s an excellent extra credit history series about him)

"War canoe" is also not a term, or image, associated with Polynesians. It's a VERY strongly Native North American image of naval conveyance.
 
"War canoe" is also not a term, or image, associated with Polynesians. It's a VERY strongly Native North American image of naval conveyance.
yeah it’s more reminiscent of the chinook or haida
 
I think those of us expecting staples to be the mainstay of this release fully expect that New Frontier is the final season. Personally I'm a bit surprised Civ VII warranted this much final support, and likely is only getting it because there's an extra year to fill if the game has the same lifespan as Civ V. New Frontier is a safe experiment precisely because, success or failure, it's going to be the last content release for Civ VI.

If second seasons are the common failure you portray them as, Firaxis will be aware of this and may think that opting for a single-season final pass offers them the best of all worlds.

I think you're surprised because you still view VI as a finite installment in a series rather than a new attempt to create a legacy style game.

The industry has changed since V and long-term support games have tended to be the bread and butter of major developers. Square Enix likely wouldn't be alive if not for the continuous revenue provided by XIV. Blizzard is dominating the competitive industry with overwatch. Even smash bros has switched to a long term, seasonal release model.

Firaxis was faced with a complicated situation for VI because so much of it retrods V's design territory, and early adoption was pretty middling. It took two years for VI's subscription to match V in a divided playerbase. If they released VII now, the playerbase would be even further divided among V, VI, and VII, because VII almost certainly wouldn't have all the features of V or VI. The civ model has diminishing returns because it's just rereleasing the same content over and over again, and adhering to that model was/is ultimately going to kill the franchise if they keep restarting development every three, five years. The best way to break the model, of course, is to create a game with can be continually patched and expanded and built out over a longer period of time, delay the inevitable reset button as much as possible.

The fact that people keep approaching VI/VII as if the franchise is exactly the same as it always has been is baffling to me. The industry has evolved and online support is not only becoming a standard for most games, but practically required if a game wants to be successful. We have been seeing the evidence for years as Firaxis has been interacting with the community, putting out patches every few months. And yet people still approach VI with a mentality that it wants to end the way IV and V did. I just don't think that's the case given that the cost-benefit of having to start fresh now is much worse than it was ten years ago.
 
I think you're surprised because you still view VI as a finite installment in a series rather than a new attempt to create a legacy style game.

The industry has changed since V and long-term support games have tended to be the bread and butter of major developers. Square Enix likely wouldn't be alive if not for the continuous revenue provided by XIV. Blizzard is dominating the competitive industry with overwatch. Even smash bros has switched to a long term, seasonal release model.

Firaxis was faced with a complicated situation for VI because so much of it retrods V's design territory,

That was by intent - Civ has always tried to follow Sid's mantra of trying to keep the complexity of the game comparable to earlier instalments, removing features from older games and adding new ones. Civ VI is already bloated because it's departed somewhat from that, but the basic game engine has no room to expand further. The sorts of games you're talking about are things that have more freedom to expand, or can add more meaningful content in small doses. New civs are always welcome, but functionally they aren't much in the way of new content and don't do anything to change the game experience.

Most non-Paradox strategy games still follow a traditional model, and the Paradox games are just longer-lived versions of the typical marketing strategy. Consider Total War games, or the Endless series which have somewhat regular patch, DLC and expansion content, last three to five years, and are then supplanted by a new release - indeed these days Total War games other than Warhammer have very little post-release support: Britannia had none and I doubt Three Kingdoms is getting much more since Warhammer III is due this year. I'm not aware of a 'legacy' system for any major strategy game publisher.

and early adoption was pretty middling. It took two years for VI's subscription to match V in a divided playerbase.

Civ VI was a relative commercial failure at release - that's not a case of a "divided" playerbase, it's a case of a broad consensus that the game wasn't very good. That's been fairly typical of Civ games in general - they're perceived to start out worse than their predecessor and in time come to equal or supplant it. We don't have Steam figures for Civ IV (at least that count the entire playerbase) but I'd expect Civ V had a similar trajectory relative to that game. If Civ VI were to reach a point where there was a more universal feeling it was better (or at least more accessible) than Civ V, people would switch. Civ IV diehards evidently didn't harm Civ V's popularity.

The civ model has diminishing returns because it's just rereleasing the same content over and over again,

That's what a franchise is, when you boil it down. There's no sign that any 'diminishing returns' are setting in with Civ or with any other franchise based on a similar model - we still have unending streams of Assassin's Creed games with cosmetic makeovers, and Creative Assembly has only increased the rate at which it releases new Total War games. Civ V was likely the most successful Civ has ever been - Civ VI hasn't done as well as far as we can tell from the available metrics, but that's a single game rather than a trend and one often held to be inferior to its predecessor despite having more features. Even if Firaxis were concerned it might presage a broader trend, you don't create a legacy game from an already-finished product - if this experiment works with Civ VI possibly they'll actually take that approach with Civ VII, but as I recall you've been stridently arguing that the legacy model doesn't work anyway because there's less buy-in each time.

The best way to break the model, of course, is to create a game with can be continually patched and expanded and built out over a longer period of time, delay the inevitable reset button as much as possible.

Which is not possible with Civ VI as built, and Firaxis has given little sign that they either have an interest in frequent patching or that they're planning on using patches as a regular balance pass or a way to make substantial changes to gameplay. The latter is a necessary part of a legacy pass system to keep the games fresh.

You're taking a highly stereotyped view of game marketing - one size has never fit all. The legacy system is visible because it's a good model for the most popular genres of games - things like Destiny or Diablo for which minor content changes can promote continued play to obtain the latest loot, and which have a competitive multiplayer element that encourages people to access the new content ahead of the competition. The content is also, as I understand it, often time-limited, so that you have to play during that season to obtain those items before they're gone (at least I think Diablo 3 did it that way).

Strategy games by their nature are built on core systems that can't change that much over time, and minor content additions like a new civ don't have the appeal or ability to spur an extended period of new gameplay that a new gun or gameplay area in Destiny might.

The fact that people keep approaching VI/VII as if the franchise is exactly the same as it always has been is baffling to me. The industry has evolved and online support is not only becoming a standard for most games, but practically required if a game wants to be successful. We have been seeing the evidence for years as Firaxis has been interacting with the community, putting out patches every few months.

At a very much lower rate than the sorts of games you're describing, and patch changes have tended to be relatively minor for the most part. The timing of major Civ VI patches hasn't been any different from that of Civ V's. Firaxis tried departing from the expansion model with Civ V - the message they received loud and clear was that people did not want a DLC system instead of traditional expansions. DLC has become normalised since, but once again with Civ VI Firaxis tried a couple of early civ DLCs and abandoned that model once the main expansions came out, which suggests that they didn't find them to be a success this time either. There's good reason for treating Civ VI the same as Civ V: its development history so far has been exactly the same. That may or may not change with Civ VII, but it defies logic and empirical evidence to suggest that Civ VI has not been handled in the same way as Civ V, or to imagine that one experiment once the game's core development is over implies that Firaxis will take a game designed in a traditional framework and try and force it to become something else.
 
"War canoe" is also not a term, or image, associated with Polynesians. It's a VERY strongly Native North American image of naval conveyance.
I believe the Maori at least did have special outrigger war canoes called "waka taua," though yes they are much more associated with the PNW tribes.
 
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