[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Republic of San Montuoso]

I have to admit, I always found Babylon's bonus to artifacts, writings and relics to be one of the most fun and interesting of all CS. But I'm just a magpipe that love to collect every artifact and relic I can find so, yeah, I love anything that gives me more rewards through it (that's why I love the Kongo). So I'd love to have a civ with the power of Babylon (science from great works) amking it, as lot of people said, a culture/science civ. But if it happens, then it should be Babylon the civ and not Assyrian.

But I'd love an Assyrian civ, but only if they make it more on the builder/science/culture side, not militaristic. We have Sumer for that.

 

[riddleofsteel]

Yeah, I think there are more ziggurats in southern Mesopotamia than in Assyria (though the Assyrians were Sumerophiles just as much as the Babylonians; most of our knowledge of Sumerian comes from Assyrian libraries).

I'm still trying to find out why the Assyrians, as semitic people, revered Nimrod, who was a hamitic conqueror who invaded their land and cities in the far past. Apparently they even based their god Assur on him.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

If Firaxis was also feeling very philanthropic, they could add Assyria and use some of the profits to help fund the rebuilding of the Assyrian sights which ISIS destroyed, like Nimrud and Nineveh and Assur

 

[Zaarin]

I'm still trying to find out why the Assyrians, as semitic people, revered Nimrod, who was a hamitic conqueror who invaded their land and cities in the far past. Apparently they even based their god Assur on him.

Uh, what? I'm not aware of any references to Nimrod outside of the Bible. The only connection between Nimrod and Assyrians I've ever heard is a not widely supported theory that Nimrod was Ninurta. The archaeological site we call "Nimrud" was called Kalhu by the Assyrians (Biblical Calah).

If Firaxis was also feeling very philanthropic, they could add Assyria and use some of the profits to help fund the rebuilding of the Assyrian sights which ISIS destroyed, like Nimrud and Nineveh and Assur

And/or help Assyrian refugees.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Uh, what? I'm not aware of any references to Nimrod outside of the Bible. The only connection between Nimrod and Assyrians I've ever heard is a not widely supported theory that Nimrod was Ninurta. The archaeological site we call "Nimrud" was called Kalhu by the Assyrians (Biblical Calah).


And/or help Assyrian refugees.

yes! they could also pay to help rebuild Palmyra if it’s Assyria + Syria in a Cradle of Civilization pack

 

[BuchiTaton]

I am for Assyrians, at least they still keep their identity.

They survived Timurid, Ottoman and are still suffering the current mess on Syria and the ISIS.

 

[Zaarin]

I am for Assyrians, at least they still keep their identity.

They survived Timurid, Ottoman and are still suffering the current mess on Syria and the ISIS.

Considering how pressure from Arabic killed out Coptic and virtually every other Semitic language in the Middle East (aside from South Arabian), I'm continuously amazed at how many Aramaic-speaking communities managed to keep their identity and their language in the Middle East. Sure, they're small and endangered, but they're there. (And that includes not just Assyrian Aramaic speakers but also Aramaic-speaking Jews, Mandaeans, and even a few Islamic Aramaic-speaking communities in Lebanon.)

 

[riddleofsteel]

Uh, what? I'm not aware of any references to Nimrod outside of the Bible. The only connection between Nimrod and Assyrians I've ever heard is a not widely supported theory that Nimrod was Ninurta. The archaeological site we call "Nimrud" was called Kalhu by the Assyrians (Biblical Calah).


And/or help Assyrian refugees.

*shrug* Apparently he went by many names and identities. He was listed in the Sumerian kings list as Enmerkar. LOTS of reading involved in getting me to this point. Who knows.

 

[Zaarin]

*shrug* Apparently he went by many names and identities. He was listed in the Sumerian kings list as Enmerkar. LOTS of reading involved in getting me to this point. Who knows.

My general understanding of Nimrod is precisely what Wikipedia says about him: "Attempts to match Nimrod with historically attested figures have failed."

 

[riddleofsteel]

My general understanding of Nimrod is precisely what Wikipedia says about him: "Attempts to match Nimrod with historically attested figures have failed."

You know how it is with experts trying to agree. We're also talking about a period of time so far back, that there's no way of knowing how much myth and truth overlap. Anyway, I would be all for seeing either Hurrians or Hittites in Civ again, but I bet we won't get them this time around.

 

[Zaarin]

Like I've said before, the Middle East can't be too crowded for my tastes. Unfortunately, I'm doubtful we'll ever see any of the really cool smaller civs of the Ancient Near East like the Hurrians, Urartians, or Elamites; even the Hittites seem like a long shot unless we get another season.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Considering how pressure from Arabic killed out Coptic and virtually every other Semitic language in the Middle East (aside from South Arabian), I'm continuously amazed at how many Aramaic-speaking communities managed to keep their identity and their language in the Middle East. Sure, they're small and endangered, but they're there. (And that includes not just Assyrian Aramaic speakers but also Aramaic-speaking Jews, Mandaeans, and even a few Islamic Aramaic-speaking communities in Lebanon.)

Isn’t coptic still spoken in the south of Egypt?

Speaking of lost languages, since you know a lot about ancient civilizations, Zaarin, do you think one could use Ancient Tamil, or Proto-Dravidian, which we know the sound of, to somewhat restore what the harappans spoke, at least to the point we could potentially see them in Civ (and that’s only if we actually got a good leader choice for them too, lol.

Elam is a big one though, i’m hoping we can see them

 

[riddleofsteel]

Like I've said before, the Middle East can't be too crowded for my tastes. Unfortunately, I'm doubtful we'll ever see any of the really cool smaller civs of the Ancient Near East like the Hurrians, Urartians, or Elamites; even the Hittites seem like a long shot unless we get another season.

Isn’t coptic still spoken in the south of Egypt?

Speaking of lost languages, since you know a lot about ancient civilizations, Zaarin, do you think one could use Ancient Tamil, or Proto-Dravidian, which we know the sound of, to somewhat restore what the harappans spoke, at least to the point we could potentially see them in Civ (and that’s only if we actually got a good leader choice for them too, lol.

Elam is a big one though, i’m hoping we can see them

Elam, or even an out-of-the way Babylonian dynasty like the Kassites would be amazing.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Who would lead Meluhha (the Mesopotamian exonym for the Harappan civilization)?

“Priest-king” from Mohenjo-Daro?

I’m not being critical, there’s just so much we don’t know about them.

 

[Zaarin]

Isn’t coptic still spoken in the south of Egypt?

No, not as a daily language. Coptic is still the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox Church. I've heard speculation that it might still be spoken in some super-isolated oasis somewhere in Egypt, but that's just speculation. It died out as a native language around the 17th century.

Speaking of lost languages, since you know a lot about ancient civilizations, Zaarin, do you think one could use Ancient Tamil, or Proto-Dravidian, which we know the sound of, to somewhat restore what the harappans spoke, at least to the point we could potentially see them in Civ (and that’s only if we actually got a good leader choice for them too, lol.

The leader is the kicker there. To my knowledge, we don't know any leader or native city names. Aside from that, one could use Proto-Dravidian, but for the time being that's just a theory (albeit the most popular one), competing with a number of other theories. If a Harappan civ were included, that's how I'd do it, but I think Harappa is best represented as a city-state.

Elam is a big one though, i’m hoping we can see them

I think they get crowded out conceptually by their successors, Achaemenid Persia. If we could ever get Sassanian Persia or at least non-Achaemenid Persia, I think that would improve Elam's chances. (Not that there isn't design space for Elam, but the Elamites got absorbed into Achaemenid Persia, with Elamite continuing to be an official language of Persia for centuries, Elamite culture fusing into Persian culture, and there's a possibility Cyrus himself was an Elamite [a theory that is controversial but out there with some academic support]. All that might prevent the Elamites from getting noticed by Firaxis, even though they were one of the biggest competitors to Babylo-Assyria.)

Elam, or even an out-of-the way Babylonian dynasty like the Kassites would be amazing.

A Kassite Babylonian leader wouldn't be that distinguishable from a native. The Kassite language is borderline unknown, and the Kassites thoroughly assimilated into Babylonian culture anyway. So a Kassite king of Babylon wouldn't really come across as much different from any other Babylonian king, not culturally and certainly not linguistically (Akkadian was still the official language).

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Who would lead Meluhha (the Mesopotamian exonym for the Harappan civilization)?

“Priest-king” from Mohenjo-Daro?

I’m not being critical, there’s just so much we don’t know about them.

which is, of course, the other concern besides language.

It’s unfortunate but hopefully as research and excavation and such continue we’ll eventually have leaders that we know of, which sucks since they were the largest civilization to grow out of the original cradles and we know so little about them.

 

[Zaarin]

which is, of course, the other concern besides language.

It’s unfortunate but hopefully as research and excavation and such continue we’ll eventually have leaders that we know of, which sucks since they were the largest civilization to grow out of the original cradles and we know so little about them.

The key difference is that Mesopotamia and Egypt had writing really early. It's still not conclusive that the Harappans had writing (Indus script is probably writing, but that hasn't been proven), and if they did it hasn't been deciphered. Similarly, the Minoans had writing but it hasn't been deciphered. Without a "Rosetta stone," the amount one can learn about an archaeological civilization is limited to physical data and what their neighbors may have said about them (in this case limited to the fact that Mesopotamia traded with them--probably, if we're reading the text right).

 

[The Kingmaker]

which is, of course, the other concern besides language.

It’s unfortunate but hopefully as research and excavation and such continue we’ll eventually have leaders that we know of, which sucks since they were the largest civilization to grow out of the original cradles and we know so little about them.

Equally lamentable is the major dearth of knowledge about the Oxus civilization in Bactria/Margiana. They were a major link in the trade network between Meluhha and Mesopotamia and the source of all the ANE’s tin for bronze-working.

 

[riddleofsteel]

A Kassite Babylonian leader wouldn't be that distinguishable from a native. The Kassite language is borderline unknown, and the Kassites thoroughly assimilated into Babylonian culture anyway. So a Kassite king of Babylon wouldn't really come across as much different from any other Babylonian king, not culturally and certainly not linguistically (Akkadian was still the official language).

Yeah, true. I'm just a hopeless fanboy of mysterious dynasties. Would it be too much to ask for Gutians or Hyksos?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

The key difference is that Mesopotamia and Egypt had writing really early. It's still not conclusive that the Harappans had writing (Indus script is probably writing, but that hasn't been proven), and if they did it hasn't been deciphered. Similarly, the Minoans had writing but it hasn't been deciphered. Without a "Rosetta stone," the amount one can learn about an archaeological civilization is limited to physical data and what their neighbors may have said about them (in this case limited to the fact that Mesopotamia traded with them--probably, if we're reading the text right).

Are there really no ‘documents’ we know from Mesopotamia which identify rulers of Harappan city states or are written in both cuneiform and indus script?

Yeah, true. I'm just a hopeless fanboy of mysterious dynasties. Would it be too much to ask for Gutians or Sea People?

aren’t the Sea People Phonecians?