[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

Why are they not considered Vietnamese? Do you mean ethnically they aren't Vietnamese or is it the fact that they were born into Chinese occupation and the actual state called Vietnam didn't appear until later?
Even if that's the case that didn't stop Seondeok from appearing and leading a unified Korea.

i think the implication made is that they belonged to an ethnic group that no longer exists but was assimilated into the vietnamese ethnicity, but like you noted, at the time of Seondeok’s rule, Koreanism as a unified ideology or ethnicity didn’t exist, Sillan was its own language, own culture, own ethnicity. Specifically, the Trung Sisters were Baiyue Chinese, an ethnicity that was incorporated and absorbed into Han Chinese over time. In that aspect, yeah, they weren’t vietnamese at the time, but Vietnam as a political concept didn’t exist at that time either. Southern ‘modern’ vietnam was the Champa empire, for example. So I think in that sense, making them leaders of Vietnam would be partially inaccurate but acceptable.

Interestingly enough, Trung Nhi (the younger, non-ruler sister) trained an all-women militia to fight back against the chinese. It would be a perfect UU, or an LUU if Trung Trac is the leader

 

[GenyaArikado]

We could use more female units. I'm astounded the Saka weren't female (you you actually missed the chance to add literal Amazons to the game firaxis? Ugh)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

i think the implication made is that they belonged to an ethnic group that no longer exists but was assimilated into the vietnamese ethnicity, but like you noted, at the time of Seondeok’s rule, Koreanism as a unified ideology or ethnicity didn’t exist, Sillan was its own language, own culture, own ethnicity. Specifically, the Trung Sisters were Baiyue Chinese, an ethnicity that was incorporated and absorbed into Han Chinese over time. In that aspect, yeah, they weren’t vietnamese at the time, but Vietnam as a political concept didn’t exist at that time either. Southern ‘modern’ vietnam was the Champa empire, for example. So I think in that sense, making them leaders of Vietnam would be partially inaccurate but acceptable.

Ok. As far as I can tell Baiyue is the Chinese word for all of the ethnicities that live south of the Han Empire, so it isn't clear to me. But as far as I can tell at least Northern Vietnam was the homeland of the Kinh people, where they were from.

Interestingly enough, Trung Nhi (the younger, non-ruler sister) trained an all-women militia to fight back against the chinese. It would be a perfect UU, or an LUU if Trung Trac is the leader

It could work although now I've been thinking how cool it would be if Trung Nhi was a unique GG, riding on an elephant, that could use charges to speed up production of units with maybe a free promotion.

 

[SMcM]

i think the implication made is that they belonged to an ethnic group that no longer exists but was assimilated into the vietnamese ethnicity, but like you noted, at the time of Seondeok’s rule, Koreanism as a unified ideology or ethnicity didn’t exist, Sillan was its own language, own culture, own ethnicity. Specifically, the Trung Sisters were Baiyue Chinese, an ethnicity that was incorporated and absorbed into Han Chinese over time. In that aspect, yeah, they weren’t vietnamese at the time, but Vietnam as a political concept didn’t exist at that time either. Southern ‘modern’ vietnam was the Champa empire, for example. So I think in that sense, making them leaders of Vietnam would be partially inaccurate but acceptable.

Interestingly enough, Trung Nhi (the younger, non-ruler sister) trained an all-women militia to fight back against the chinese. It would be a perfect UU, or an LUU if Trung Trac is the leader

I haven't seen a lot of discussion of possible alternatives to the Trung sisters, it seems a bit like generally the community here has it's mind made up on that. I presume Firaxis will have taken not since people have been suggesting them for years. But I don't suppose we can be certain they will be picked, there is of course others they could go for- I feel like Le Loi or Quang Trung would definitely be viable choices.

 

[SirMediocrity]

It's worth noting that since the Vietnam/Kublai DLC requires Rise and Fall, one of the Trung Sisters could possibly be represented as a unique governor (assuming you don't need Gathering Storm to implement unique governors), maybe specializing in training and stuff like that.

 

[Navelgazer]

I have no expectation of this actually happening but it'd be cool if they made the Trung Sisters the leader, and then allowed for a "Persona Pack" for each sister in the lead.

 

[SMcM]

I have no expectation of this actually happening but it'd be cool if they made the Trung Sisters the leader, and then allowed for a "Persona Pack" for each sister in the lead.

I thought that, but it wouldn't really make sense, because that would be two different people, not just a different persona.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It's worth noting that since the Vietnam/Kublai DLC requires Rise and Fall, one of the Trung Sisters could possibly be represented as a unique governor (assuming you don't need Gathering Storm to implement unique governors), maybe specializing in training and stuff like that.

Only the new leader requires R&F according to the website. The game mode and civilization doesn't.

I have no expectation of this actually happening but it'd be cool if they made the Trung Sisters the leader, and then allowed for a "Persona Pack" for each sister in the lead.

They said they have no plans for any more personas at least in the near future.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

It's worth noting that since the Vietnam/Kublai DLC requires Rise and Fall, one of the Trung Sisters could possibly be represented as a unique governor (assuming you don't need Gathering Storm to implement unique governors), maybe specializing in training and stuff like that.

didn’t the preview specify specifically that the alt leader only would need RF, not the whole pack. Additionally, if Vietnam used a unique governor in addition to Kublai, they’d say the whole pack would need RF OR GS and the alt leader specifically requires RF

I have no expectation of this actually happening but it'd be cool if they made the Trung Sisters the leader, and then allowed for a "Persona Pack" for each sister in the lead.

trung nhi didn’t lead, and the idea that she did within the civ community almost solely comes from the civ 5 mod, rather than any historical precedence.

 

[SirMediocrity]

Only the new leader requires R&F according to the website. The game mode and civilization doesn't.

didn’t the preview specify specifically that the alt leader only would need RF, not the whole pack.

Well ok then. Never mind that I guess.

 

[SMcM]

trung nhi didn’t lead, and the idea that she did within the civ community almost solely comes from the civ 5 mod, rather than any historical precedence.

Yeah that's believable. I suppose when making the mod they just thought it was novel to have 2 leaders on the screen, but with fully animated leaders I think that sounds like a bit of a nightmare to be honest.

 

[8housesofelixir]

It's worth noting that since the Vietnam/Kublai DLC requires Rise and Fall, one of the Trung Sisters could possibly be represented as a unique governor (assuming you don't need Gathering Storm to implement unique governors), maybe specializing in training and stuff like that.

It will be interesting to see another unique governor outside Ibrahim. However I would like to point out that all the historical accounts about the Trung Sisters are scarce, and all simply about their revolt and military success; whereas Ibrahim had plenty of records about his political career, and can work with both military and diplomacy in the game. A unique governor only for military may be too narrow game-wise (a governor can have five promotions, that's a wide range) and we already have Victor.

I would imagine Trung Sisters being incorporated as a unique ability for combat strength bonuses.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

It will be interesting to see another unique governor outside Ibrahim. However I would like to point out that all the historical accounts about the Trung Sisters are scarce, and all simply about their revolt and military success; whereas Ibrahim had plenty of records about his political career, and can work with both military and diplomacy in the game. A unique governor only for military may be too narrow game-wise (a governor can have five promotions, that's a wide range) and we already have Victor.

I would imagine Trung Sisters being incorporated as a unique ability for combat strength bonuses.

i’m a big fan of the indonesia rework mod that makes gaja madah a governor for gitarja

 

[SMcM]

i’m a big fan of the indonesia rework mod that makes gaja madah a governor for gitarja

My favourite is the mod which adds Gajah Mada as an alternate leader, with his 3D model and animations and everything all ported across from Civilization V.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

My favourite is the mod which adds Gajah Mada as an alternate leader, with his 3D model and animations and everything all ported across from Civilization V.

i like that line of mods too. I use both.

 

[notNamed]

Why are they not considered Vietnamese? Do you mean ethnically they aren't Vietnamese or is it the fact that they were born into Chinese occupation and the actual state called Vietnam didn't appear until later?

Thenewwwguy hit the nail on the head, more or less. If you look at northern Vietnam even today, it's a highly diverse place with lots of ethnic groups, of which ethnic Vietnamese are just one of, the Kinh (京), "the civilised/city-dwelling ones".
The girls, then, are kind of like the Ainu are to the Japanese. Completely alien (historically accurate Trung sisters would have spoken a Tai language and dressed as Han Dynasty nobles would, which is a part of why I'm not 100% behind the idea) from the later arrivals, but still a part of the underlying state genealogy.

 

[SMcM]

Thank you, that's helped me understand the situation better.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Thenewwwguy hit the nail on the head, more or less. If you look at northern Vietnam even today, it's a highly diverse place with lots of ethnic groups, of which ethnic Vietnamese are just one of, the Kinh (京), "the civilised/city-dwelling ones".
The girls, then, are kind of like the Ainu are to the Japanese. Completely alien (historically accurate Trung sisters would have spoken a Tai language and dressed as Han Dynasty nobles would, which is a part of why I'm not 100% behind the idea) from the later arrivals, but still a part of the underlying state genealogy.

I don’t know too much about Vietnam, but I’d personally still like to see Ngo Quyen, who unlike Trung Trac, actually successfully defeated the chinese for good and permanently established vietnam as a political entity (although he didn’t control the whole region and he didn’t call his kingdom Vietnam). He also was indubitably Vietnamese and likely spoke it or a related language.

side note: i can fully imagine Firaxis doesn’t do their research regarding Trung Trac and has her speak vietnamese

 

[zhugejingqi]

I don't think it matters what language a potential Vietnamese leader speaks. The key is that Vietnamese recognize them as the leader of Vietnam.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I don't think it matters what language a potential Vietnamese leader speaks. The key is that Vietnamese recognize them as the leader of Vietnam.

you missed my point. My point is that I can imagine the devs using a language they didn’t speak, like when Ramses the Great spoke Arabic in civ 5.

Anyway, I’d argue the language they speak is importnat. Language is an important part of national identity.