[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Zaarin]

Speaking of Cherokee, IIRC they created a semi-independent constitutional republic with well-established institutions by their own even before the removal. The Hawaiians had accomplished similar achievements - they were still largely a tribal alliance under Kamehameha I, but by the time of Kamehameha III, less than half a century later, they became a constitutional monarchy which went though a massive land reform.

I was always fascinated by these "speedy" modernization process conducted by the indigenous people as they are really, really uncommon, and wonder if accomplishments like these can be represented as an in-game civ ability - for instance, the ability to rush though the civic tree when behind the world era.

Yes, all four of the "Civilized Tribes" did (the Seminole, being essentially Creek refugees, operated under a more traditional tribal government, I believe). I wouldn't be too quick to attribute these governments to contact, however: cf. the Iroquois Confederation, whose republican government far antedates Columbus. (Leading some overenthusiastic scholars to attribute the US Constitution to the Iroquois, a stance which most scholars now agree is unfounded--but the idea nevertheless lingers on in popular history.) Much more remarkable is how quickly Native societies took to gunpowder, horses, metallurgy (by the 18th century the Iroquois were noted for their silversmiths and goldsmiths), and European textiles. As Pushmataha noted, by the 18th century Native American life was inextricable from European goods; the sort of nativism Tecumseh espoused would have been impossible to implement.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The Hawaiians aren’t considered Native Americans though. They are part of the wider Polynesian culture as Hawaii isn’t considered part of North America yet it being a current state in the US.

Oh, I used the phrase "Indigenous People" in a general sense, not limited to "North American Native Peoples". And Hawaiians & Civilized Tribes are the only cases of "speedy institutional modernization" I am aware of, so I used Hawaiians as a similar example.

 

[mitsho]

I wouldn't say more likely, or that nothing bad happens. I think the former conclusion amounts to slapping all speculation down with sweeping, defeatist conclusions that are largely held up by willful refusal to look at game design analytically. And the latter is just completely ignoring Firaxis' clear self-interest in maintaining and growing goodwill as a brand.

You could, of course, be right, but so far I have every reason to believe that Firaxis has put a lot more thought into this game than you have.

They also have access to more data by the way of their sales number and they perhaps even did a word count for the various civs on their social media channels and forums. But in the end, there's also commercial reasons, personal preferences and their own resources in terms of available artists and programmers that factor in that all may trump perceived historicity. In the end, guessing the line-up of the civs just isn't a hard science. Or else we wouldn't have over 7200 posts in this thread alone on it. The discussion in here by the way mostly revolves around that topic of historicity: This civ deserves to be in! If we have this many from here, we need this many from there as a counter-balance! we don't need this civ, because this other civ represents that culture or region!. See, how silly that sounds if I take away the names. I occasionally scroll through this thread because I am a history nerd myself and likes to learn new things. It's interesting and I occasionally chip in. But I still find the fervour of discussion in here kinda silly. I know, that's what these forums are for - it's right there in the name after all. But I do need to point out that you may make best guesses, and infer viable and likely candidates from the past, but that in no way means anything about "civs deserving a spot". And I'll now let you have the last word in this argument, since, you know...

 

[Thenewwwguy]

They also have access to more data by the way of their sales number and they perhaps even did a word count for the various civs on their social media channels and forums. But in the end, there's also commercial reasons, personal preferences and their own resources in terms of available artists and programmers that factor in that all may trump perceived historicity. In the end, guessing the line-up of the civs just isn't a hard science. Or else we wouldn't have over 7200 posts in this thread alone on it. The discussion in here by the way mostly revolves around that topic of historicity: This civ deserves to be in! If we have this many from here, we need this many from there as a counter-balance! we don't need this civ, because this other civ represents that culture or region!. See, how silly that sounds if I take away the names. I occasionally scroll through this thread because I am a history nerd myself and likes to learn new things. It's interesting and I occasionally chip in. But I still find the fervour of discussion in here kinda silly. I know, that's what these forums are for - it's right there in the name after all. But I do need to point out that you may make best guesses, and infer viable and likely candidates from the past, but that in no way means anything about "civs deserving a spot". And I'll now let you have the last word in this argument, since, you know...

i mean, i don’t think that discussion sounds silly. Frankly, when you’re thinking about what civs are viable in a game the deservingness has to be considered

 

[mitsho]

i mean, i don’t think that discussion sounds silly. Frankly, when you’re thinking about what civs are viable in a game the deservingness has to be considered

My point is if you ask three Historians to define "deserving", you will get eight answers. Also true if you ask them about "civilization" by the way. And don't get me started on "leader". ;-)

 

[Thenewwwguy]

My point is if you ask three Historians to define "deserving", you will get eight answers. Also true if you ask them about "civilization" by the way. And don't get me started on "leader". ;-)

of course, and that’s where the debate lies. But saying that a discussion of deservingness is unwarranted is a tad unfair

 

[gunnergoz]

You know what I'd like? The ability to create my own leader in the game setup screen, with abilities and so forth to choose from. I'm not a modder so I think more along the lines of creating a particular game setup in an easy to do fashion, kind of like you create characters in RPG's. This would of course include some aspect of nation specification or even creation.

 

[mitsho]

of course, and that’s where the debate lies. But saying that a discussion of deservingness is unwarranted is a tad unfair

It's about the implied universality in which tone that term is often used around here. Coat it in personal opinion or follow it with a "because" and it's okay, but the origin of the debate to which I answered was about "Canada has two civs, that is too many, therefore, other regions will have to receive more civs as well, otherwise it's unfair. Praphrased by me of course, I just like to point out that that argument is silly to me. Good night.

 

[onepurpose]

They also have access to more data by the way of their sales number and they perhaps even did a word count for the various civs on their social media channels and forums. But in the end, there's also commercial reasons, personal preferences and their own resources in terms of available artists and programmers that factor in that all may trump perceived historicity. In the end, guessing the line-up of the civs just isn't a hard science. Or else we wouldn't have over 7200 posts in this thread alone on it. The discussion in here by the way mostly revolves around that topic of historicity: This civ deserves to be in! If we have this many from here, we need this many from there as a counter-balance! we don't need this civ, because this other civ represents that culture or region!. See, how silly that sounds if I take away the names. I occasionally scroll through this thread because I am a history nerd myself and likes to learn new things. It's interesting and I occasionally chip in. But I still find the fervour of discussion in here kinda silly. I know, that's what these forums are for - it's right there in the name after all. But I do need to point out that you may make best guesses, and infer viable and likely candidates from the past, but that in no way means anything about "civs deserving a spot". And I'll now let you have the last word in this argument, since, you know...

This!

 

[Franz_van_der_Aaagh]

Well, I'd say that there are several issues with implementation of non-European civs (the further we are moving off Western Europe, the more) and one is the logic of progress in Civ series. Whichever non-Western culture you'd like to include wil have to obey the same technological/cultural tree mirrored on some specific notion of game's/historical ultimate objective. It's really odd to see how on one hand non-European/exotic are desired to be represented, and on the other, how eagerly it'll be role-played as if it were an approximately European civilization.
Therefore, I'd say, it's much less controversial to implement a civ that's following some variant of European historiosophy, than to do acrobatic efforts and force to fit a socio-political entity into a notion of "The Civilization" for the sheer flavour of exotism or moral redemption.

tl;dr
Milton Tootoosis - contemporary leader of Cree - has already stated why adding his tribe as a fraction is controversial and even a goodwill of non-eurocentrism doesn't seem about right.

 

[Zaarin]

Milton Tootoosis - contemporary leader of Cree - has already stated why adding his tribe as a fraction is controversial and even a goodwill of non-eurocentrism doesn't seem about right.

He was also in the middle of a political campaign with the Canadian government that certainly had nothing to do with his desire to draw media attention. I wouldn't read too much into his "protest," TBH, especially since many other Cree, including the Poundmaker Singers, direct descendants of Poundmaker, were thrilled by the portrayal of the Cree.

 

[AaronTBD]

What would an Inuit civ be about?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Well, I'd say that there are several issues with implementation of non-European civs (the further we are moving off Western Europe, the more) and one is the logic of progress in Civ series. Whichever non-Western culture you'd like to include wil have to obey the same technological/cultural tree mirrored on some specific notion of game's/historical ultimate objective.

Native Americans didn't have horses before European arrival, but a Native American civ without the technology of horse-riding in the beginning of the game will be absurd. The same can be applied to gunpowder and firearms.

What would an Inuit civ be about?

Able to generate yields from snow tiles and win a diplomatic victory I guess.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

What would an Inuit civ be about?

Snow

Sorry, couldn't resist that.
In fact, as a people/culture, they are near-perfectly adapted to the Arctic snow/tundra environment, so much so that in Greenland they thrived while the relatively more 'advanced' technologically Norse (metal-working, ocean-going ships) died out.
The problem is, all the adaptive techniques in the world aren't enough to give them the population density to form cities of any kind until the Modern Era allows you to bring in resources from Far Away, and even then the term 'Arctic Metropolis' does not appear on any map of the Inuit world . . .

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Oh, I used the phrase "Indigenous People" in a general sense, not limited to "North American Native Peoples". And Hawaiians & Civilized Tribes are the only cases of "speedy institutional modernization" I am aware of, so I used Hawaiians as a similar example.

I thought so, just making sure. I do know that the Mapuche adopted Spanish warfare tactics quickly and that's why they were able to resist them and Chile for hundreds of years.

In fact, as a people/culture, they are near-perfectly adapted to the Arctic snow/tundra environment, so much so that in Greenland they thrived while the relatively more 'advanced' technologically Norse (metal-working, ocean-going ships) died out.

Let's not give them ideas.

 

[TeddyMain]

What would an Inuit civ be about?

Snow, as said before. Also possibly an emphasis on exploration and faith.

 

[Zaarin]

INUIT
Leader: Nanuq
LUA: Gains the unique unit "Polar Bear"; gains a unique luxury: Ice Cold Coca-Cola
Agenda: Tries to settle in Snow; dislikes civs who settle in Snow (say hello to the new Gilgabro )
CUA: Snow tiles gain +1 Food, +1 Production, +1 Faith, +1 Diplomatic Favor; can only settle in Snow
UU: Dog Sled: Replaces the Chariot, weaker and cheaper, moves faster in Snow, doesn't require Horses
UI: Igloo: Can only be built in Snow, provides +1 Food, +1 Housing

 

[Thenewwwguy]

What would an Inuit civ be about?

Fighting with Civ 4 Native Americans, Civ 2-5 Celts and Civ 5 Polynesia and Huns for worst designed civ

 

[reddishrecue]

Fighting with Civ 4 Native Americans, Civ 2-5 Celts and Civ 5 Polynesia and Huns for worst designed civ

The civ 4 native Americans and sitting bull had such a good wonder building strategy that I used to like. I don't have proof of it because it was in the older computer but it made sense to build up cultural cities with walls/castles, totem poles and longbows with a bunch of promotions.

 

[AaronTBD]

INUIT
Leader: Nanuq
LUA: Gains the unique unit "Polar Bear"; gains a unique luxury: Ice Cold Coca-Cola
Agenda: Tries to settle in Snow; dislikes civs who settle in Snow (say hello to the new Gilgabro )
CUA: Snow tiles gain +1 Food, +1 Production, +1 Faith, +1 Diplomatic Favor; can only settle in Snow
UU: Dog Sled: Replaces the Chariot, weaker and cheaper, moves faster in Snow, doesn't require Horses
UI: Igloo: Can only be built in Snow, provides +1 Food, +1 Housing

Everything below the LUA wasn't half-bad and could be useful. But a polar bear as a leader, while would be funny, wouldn't make sence...





They need a specific Polar Bear