[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[PhoenicianGold]

Thank you for your opinion sir
I am with @8housesofelixir here. I am neither for or against Native American Civs in any form. I am far more interested in Civ design. I just wanted to point there are a lot of opinions, everyone has their favorites and a number of Civs in a game is limited. That's why possible new Civs topics are so hot.
Let's just not refer to some objective criteria in a discussion about personal preferences.

@Thenewwwguy was listing reasonable, and fairly objective factors for why a Native American blob in fact isn't very well received by the civ playerbase. Let's not just claim everything is subjective opinion to avoid addressing it on the merits?

Kalmar Union Denmark would be fun.

I have convinced myself that Norway is actually Denmark-Norway, so we needn't worry about cramming Denmark into VI just for the sake of Margaret, King of Everything the Light Touches.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

we have a bunch of historic empires & cultures and 200 un countries.. we can't have a civ for all of them

Ummm, no one ever wanted everything in civ. Not every single corner of the world and every nation to have ever existed needs to be in the game. But at minimum, a good, fair mix of cultures from all over the world and different times without blobbing disparate cultures together is a minimum. ‘Celtic’, ‘Viking’ and ‘Native American’ civs would be ahistorical. That’s just a fact.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Well I wasn't expecting a Soviet Union civ, but I wouldn't be surprised to see an argument for that it could be the case.

Poland, Czechia, and the Balkan States were not part of the Soviet Union I wasn't be surprised by any argument when it comes to a possible new Civ discussion

 

[Zaarin]

Not really , but there is no place to start a lesson on political history of western europe

Most of your posts have been condescending, but this is kind of ramping it to extreme levels. Most people participating in this thread are pretty knowledgeable about history. You do not have a monopoly on historical knowledge, and it doesn't help your credibility to make historically falsifiable statements like "Vikings were a civilization."

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Most of your posts have been condescending, but this is kind of ramping it to extreme levels. Most people participating in this thread are pretty knowledgeable about history. You do not have a monopoly on historical knowledge, and it doesn't help your credibility to make historically falsifiable statements like "Vikings were a civilization."

i still don’t understand how someone claiming to need to teach me a western europe history lesson isn’t aware of the fact that scotland and england unified in 1707, even if they had shared certain rulers prior to that

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

 

[onepurpose]

i still don’t understand how someone claiming to need to teach me a western europe history lesson isn’t aware of the fact that scotland and england unified in 1707, even if they had shared certain rulers prior to that

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

The fact that were different political entities does not imply independence .. there was not separate foreign police nor army ...

More or less , like the rest of Western Europe which indeed is the birth of the modern nation-state that conform the international order today

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Kalmar Union Denmark would be fun.

So "viking" Iceland and Kalmar Union Denmark (Scandinavia) for Civ 7 covering all the basis?

Poland, Czechia, and the Balkan States were not part of the Soviet Union I wasn't be surprised by any argument when it comes to a possible new Civ discussion

Still all of them were closer politically at the time than a Native American blob could possibly be.

 

[Zaarin]

The fact that were different political entities does not matter independence .. there was not separate foreign police nor army ...

Wow, I guess Scotland missed the memo during all the wars they fought with England and all the times they sided with France against England in international affairs. (Since we're on the topic of history lessons, Scotland had its own king, its own army, and its own foreign policy until the Stuarts assumed the throne of England. )

So "viking" Iceland and Kalmar Union Denmark (Scandinavia) for Civ 7 covering all the basis?

I'd be game.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

The fact that were different political entities does not imply independence .. there was not separate foreign police nor army ...

More or less , like the rest of Western Europe which indeed is the birth of the modern nation-state that conform the international order today

i didn’t know police and an army were what defined a country’s political independence. guess costa rica (no army) isn’t independent. please, tell me more.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Still all of them were closer politically at the time than a Native American blob could possibly be.

Sorry but this is just historical ignorance.

 

[onepurpose]

So "viking" Iceland and Kalmar Union Denmark (Scandinavia) for Civ 7 covering all the basis?


Still all of them were closer politically at the time than a Native American blob could possibly be.

You have in mind today borders..

Medieval Poland was not Modern Era Poland nor the country that disappeared in the partitions... in a recent time after WW2 Poland lost about 1/3 of this territory that was given to URSS (now Ukraine), taking a large portion of Eastern Prussia... 8-10 millions of persons were relocated ..

Balcans had been ottoman subdits to recent date as 17-18 century..

You can pretend "historical accuracy" in a game that covers 4000 years trying to resemble some political history.. is what I prefer so-called "blob" civs that at least have a distinctive significance

 

[onepurpose]

i didn’t know police and an army were what defined a country’s political independence. guess costa rica (no army) isn’t independent. please, tell me more.

Buy a manual on international law and read the first introductory chapters..

then we can continue this topic

 

[Zaarin]

Maybe we could stop discussing onepurpose's arrogantly-worded assertions that all the civs in the game should be generic blob civs and get back to speculating? Just a thought...

I have convinced myself that Norway is actually Denmark-Norway, so we needn't worry about cramming Denmark into VI just for the sake of Margaret, King of Everything the Light Touches.

I don't expect Denmark in Civ6. Having all three Scandinavian civs in one game would be excessive--even if the other kids are doing it, Ἕλληνες. But I wouldn't mind seeing Late Medieval Denmark instead of Early Modern Sweden next time around, as important as Sweden was.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

You can pretend "historical accuracy" in a game that covers 4000 years trying to resemble some political history.. is what I prefer so-called "blob" civs that at least have a distinctive significance

Err, weren’t you the one complaining about historical accuracy in this game before? Blob civs literally never have distinction or significance. It’s just reductive to describing influential cultures.

Buy a manual on international law and read the first introductory chapters..

then we can continue this topic

I’m a political science major at one of the US’s best schools for political science, but sure, i’m the one who doesn’t know what classifies a nation

Sorry but this is just historical ignorance.

not really...most native american groups came from 3-5 completely unrelated migrations while the slavic peoples came in migrations that were related and differentiated after settlement.

The slavic cultures have a lot in common with the celtic cultures in that they share an origin but differentiated heavily over time. Nonetheless, the differentiation never went to the extent of the native americans (since native americans as a group never had one origin point, but celts and slavs did)

slavic, celtic and native american blob civs would all be historically unsupported, but the native american blob factually would be the least accurate.

 

[Zaarin]

not really...most native american groups came from 3-5 completely unrelated migrations while the slavic peoples came in migrations that were related and differentiated after settlement.

The slavic cultures have a lot in common with the celtic cultures in that they share an origin but differentiated heavily over time. Nonetheless, the differentiation never went to the extent of the native americans (since native americans as a group never had one origin point, but celts and slavs did)

slavic, celtic and native american blob civs would all be historically unsupported, but the native american blob factually would be the least accurate.

Not to mention that the Tlingit and Calusa were totally unaware of the other's existence, but Civ4 would have us believe that they're the same civilization. (They should have consulted with Greenberg. He would have told them to leave out the Tlingit but add the Tierra del Fuegans. )

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

not really...most native american groups came from 3-5 completely unrelated migrations while the slavic peoples came in migrations that were related and differentiated after settlement.

The slavic cultures have a lot in common with the celtic cultures in that they share an origin but differentiated heavily over time. Nonetheless, the differentiation never went to the extent of the native americans (since native americans as a group never had one origin point, but celts and slavs did)

slavic, celtic and native american blob civs would all be historically unsupported, but the native american blob factually would be the least accurate.

This discussion turned into absurd. I am out.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Not to mention that the Tlingit and Calusa were totally unaware of the other's existence, but Civ4 would have us believe that they're the same civilization. (They should have consulted with Greenberg. He would have told them to leave out the Tlingit but add the Tierra del Fuegans. )

hehe that would’ve been funny

Native Americans Civ 6 (tribute to the blob fans):

Leader: Lautaro: Gains access to the Eagle Warrior UU.

UU: Chinook Canoe

LUU: Eagle Warriors

CA: Iroquois Confederacy

 

[Xandinho]

Kalmar Union is meh for me, I prefer that they continue to represent Scandinavia with Protestant Sweden and a Viking nation that may be either Denmark or Norway.

For Vikings, how about a civilization called "Nordics" with two leaders, a Norwegian Viking leader and a Danish Viking leader?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

This discussion turned into absurd. I am out.

Facts are absurd? I just pointed out the historical context. Don’t let your personal experiences color objectivism. You have a certain perspective being polish, but that perspective doesn’t reach other places in the world. While your personal perspective might make you feel as if the slavic cultures are completely unrelated, try to conceive the idea that perhaps, then, that native american cultures are even more varied. Since you’re Polish, you probably don’t exactly have a good idea of how different Native American cultures actually are (most Americans probsbly don’t either), but historical fact doesn’t lie.

 

[onepurpose]

Most of your posts have been condescending, but this is kind of ramping it to extreme levels. Most people participating in this thread are pretty knowledgeable about history. You do not have a monopoly on historical knowledge, and it doesn't help your credibility to make historically falsifiable statements like "Vikings were a civilization."

Enoguh for today

sorry if I seemed condescendient

I say viking is a civilization in the context of civ games... as have been in previous instances.. I say I don't like indentify norway to viking , I think norsemen as have been stated is far better

about independence .. we have no to discuss things like sovereign and political unions... but the fact that there was independence sentiment in Scotland (and today is still there) and foreign enemies tried to use it .. does mean that Scotland and England were independent states in real terms.. Nor Castile and Aragon were "independent" states until 1707-1716 in which the "Decretos de Nueva Planta" unified the laws and create Spain a single political entity

but as I said, I won't discuss anymore