[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[SagarRathore]

TBH, making Nalanda a CS seems to echo with making Armagh, Nan Madol, etc., as CS. They can be either Wonders or City States - Moai was a wonder in Civ IV - and FXS chooses City States this time.

My knowledge on world history especially new world is not very good. So I dont know much about cultures like nan mandol, Nazca etc.
But one thing which I find common in them that they r outside of traditional old world. In that sense sometimes it feel that Indian subcontinent falls on the black spot of western companies.
I cited similar cases like oxford,sankore.
Till now,In my study of Indian history I had never read about any important entity like Nalanda City. It was a university just like Takshilla(Taxila),Vikramashila etc .
For that matter Taxila was more important city.
In fact I can reverse the argument & say such universities were integral part of Indian Civilization & r proof of continuity of it. I mean if u separate such institutions from a civilization then what's left in it.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

They updated the preview build. Last time that happened we saw Venice as a city-state.

 

[j51]

My knowledge on world history especially new world is not very good. So I dont know much about cultures like nan mandol, Nazca etc.
But one thing which I find common in them that they r outside of traditional old world. In that sense sometimes it feel that Indian subcontinent falls on the black spot of western companies.
I cited similar cases like oxford,sankore.
Till now,In my study of Indian history I had never read about any important entity like Nalanda City. It was a university just like Takshilla(Taxila),Vikramashila etc .
For that matter Taxila was more important city.
In fact I can reverse the argument & say such universities were integral part of Indian Civilization & r proof of continuity of it. I mean if u separate such institutions from a civilization then what's left in it.

This. 100%. In the way the game is designed, Nalanda should either be a wonder-university like Oxford and Sankore, or one of those campus districts that has so many adjacency bonuses it shows up on your timeline.

 

[8housesofelixir]

But one thing which I find common in them that they r outside of traditional old world. In that sense sometimes it feel that Indian subcontinent falls on the black spot of western companies.

I agree with that - for instance we have Gandhi in every single Civ game.

I cited similar cases like oxford,sankore.

Personally I wouldn't mind an Oxford City-State. As I said, these "sites" can go both ways, either a Wonder or a CS.

Kilwa is another example - unlike Nalanda, it is a historical City State, but turned into a Wonder instead.

Till now,In my study of Indian history I had never read about any important entity like Nalanda City. It was a university just like Takshilla (Taxila),Vikramashila etc. For that matter Taxila was more important city.

Nalanda is not really an independent polity, I agree, but in terms of importance, Nalanda is probably the most important and the most developed Mahavihara in India.

(It also enjoyed an autonomous status, at least according to Chinese monks who visited it - both Xuanzang and Yijing claimed that Nalanda was not really controlled by the local monarch, it was the monks of the Nalanda that ruled the place.)

In fact I can reverse the argument & say such universities were integral part of Indian Civilization & r proof of continuity of it. I mean if u separate such institutions from a civilization then what's left in it.

This is an interesting argument - I'm not an Indian expert so I cannot argue against it - but I would say if we don't view "India" as a single, homogenous culture, then separate a "part" of it as a city-state is also fine.

(Of course, Nalanda isn't a good example of such separation. If we can have a Chola City State alongside with an Indian civ that will be more like it. See Cardiff CS and an England civ led by Victoria.)

 

[Guandao]

A little off topic, but who's betting on the Portuguese Leader to have a similar Agenda to the Explorer one?

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

A little off topic, but who's betting on the Portuguese Leader to have a similar Agenda to the Explorer one?

Are we getting Portgual?

 

[Zaarin]

Are we getting Portgual?

Nothing confirmed, but it seems highly probable at this point.

 

[Guynemer]

I think it probably comes down to Portugal vs. another North American First Nations civ, and man, I really really want the latter as opposed to the former.

 

[Zaarin]

I think it probably comes down to Portugal vs. another North American First Nations civ, and man, I really really want the latter as opposed to the former.

Same, but I think the former is more likely unfortunately. The only thing that gives me a glimmer of hope is that we've already had a Europe pack.

 

[SagarRathore]

Nalanda is not really an independent polity, I agree, but in terms of importance, Nalanda is probably the most important and the most developed Mahavihara in India.

Important & Popular...Yeah, I guess that's why they went for it. Anyway it may be popular & important but not unique there were many all over the subcontinent Pushpagiri,Vikramshila,Valabhi,Sompura etc. In fact if we count all small & large one, one can argue India should have such universities/monasteries as unique infrastructure instead of stepwells which were quite limited to arid areas.

I

(It also enjoyed an autonomous status, at least according to Chinese monks who visited it - both Xuanzang and Yijing claimed i that Nalanda was not really controlled by the local monarch, it was the monks of the Nalanda that ruled the place.)

Pardon me but I haven't read them in detail,so I don't know much about this autonomy issue & in what context they made such observations. For instance whether they mean whole Nalanda city was controlled thru university. As far as I m aware Nalanda was under patron of Gupta Emperors, Emperor Harsha.
& Regarding autonomy case such institutions had always been quite autonomous in some aspects in history of India whether it be Vedic Sages & there Gurukul(kinda school),Brahmins;buddhist,Jain,Ajivika monastery. They were part of whole civilization rather a short lived empire,hence sacred.

 

[Guandao]

I think Firaxis is thinking twice about adding another North American native Civ because of the Cree debacle. If they don't want to be portrayed in Civ, why should they be added? Plus they pretty much all have the endangered languages issue.

 

[Zaarin]

I think Firaxis is thinking twice about adding another North American native Civ because of the Cree debacle. If they don't want to be portrayed in Civ, why should they be added?

I think people overestimate the Cree debacle. It was one headman, and he generated free publicity for Firaxis. To echo the Mass Media quote from Civ5, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

 

[Guandao]

If New Frontier really is the final additions to Civ6, then I expect Portugal to make it over another North Amerindian Civ.

We also had the Puebloan issue back in Civ5.

 

[SagarRathore]

This is an interesting argument - I'm not an Indian expert so I cannot argue against it - but I would say if we don't view "India" as a single, homogenous culture, then separate a "part" of it as a city-state is also fine.

(Of course, Nalanda isn't a good example of such separation. If we can have a Chola City State alongside with an Indian civ that will be more like it. See Cardiff CS and an England civ led by Victoria.)

To be fair,with all prevailing motion on this topic, I haven't yet seen any good argument on deblobing India.
Either,the proposal is of short lived empires i.e to represent at least 3500 year continuous culture thru a short lived 100-150 year big empire.

Or suggestion for distant regions or linguistic entity or modern province( Tamil,Punjab,Bengal)
Tbh, I m not knowledgeable enough to talk about distant region like Tamil. But I don't see why at least Northern India can't be seen as something like China. It was even politically united for most of its history.

 

[8housesofelixir]

In fact if we count all small & large one, one can argue India should have such universities/monasteries as unique units instead of stepwells which were quite limited to arid areas.

Hope that next time India will be a Religious-Culture or Religious-Science civ, with Mahavihara as a unique University.

(Interestingly, Stupa, which is of Mauryan origin, is the only religious building that gives science; seems like a compensation for Classical India's scientific achievements.) Nevermind, it's actually Wat that gives science. I think I messed up Stupa from Humankind here.

But I don't see why at least Northern India can't be seen as something like China. It was even politically united for most of its history.

For the record, I'm also a firm supporter of de-blobbing China. China looks continuous, but it is actually not.

 

[Zaarin]

Interestingly, Stupa, which is of Mauryan origin, is the only religious building that gives science

Wait, when did they change it from giving amenities?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Wait, when did they change it from giving amenities?

Oh......my memory is wrong here. The science-giving religious building is Wat (because it means school or something similar). I think I messed up Stupa from Humankind, which gives Science to nearby tiles.

 

[SagarRathore]

For the record, I'm also a firm supporter of de-blobbing China. China looks continuous, but it is actually not.

Just to be clear I m not totally against deblobing India,China etc. But what I want is genuine & accurate representation. I mean if I m not wrong Europe has some 19,20 civilizations. Both India & China r comparable to its scale in both history & geography. At least they should get at least half of that number & of genuine civilizations which exists or existed in past on there respective land.

 

[Onii-chan]

I'm not gonna pretend to know everything about Chinese history because I don't, but like even though China has historically split apart and reunited again tons of times throughout history with all of its different dynasties, ultimately it's still China. Were the cultural differences between each kingdom within China at times of it being split apart really big enough to warrant being considered a separate civilization entirely in a game like Civ? That feels a little bit stretched

If we look more to the southern and western edges of modern day Chinese territory then there are more culturally different groups, like the Nanman tribes of the southern jungles (which were recently added to Total War Three Kingdoms as a different culture entirely for example). So I guess that might be a more plausible approach, but I'm not sure if they're really impactful enough to be worth a full civ slot in this game

 

[8housesofelixir]

Just to be clear I m not totally against deblobing India,China etc. But what I want is genuine & accurate representation. I mean if I m not wrong Europe has some 19,20 civilizations. Both India & China r comparable to its scale in both history & geography. At least they should get at least half of that number & of genuine civilizations which exists or existed in past on there respective land.

I think we are on the same page here. If divided by time period and polities with very different cultural origins, we can get a lot more out of South Asia and East Asia. I would say Humankind is on track here, divided "cultures" into different time periods.

I'm not gonna pretend to know everything about Chinese history because I don't, but like even though China has historically split apart and reunited again tons of times throughout history with all of its different dynasties, ultimately it's still China. Were the cultural differences between each kingdom within China at times of it being split apart really big enough to warrant being considered a separate civilization entirely in a game like Civ? That feels a little bit stretched
If we look more to the southern and western edges of modern day Chinese territory then there are more culturally different groups, like the Nanman tribes of the southern jungles (which were recently added to Total War Three Kingdoms as a different culture entirely for example). So I guess that might be a more plausible approach, but I'm not sure if they're really impactful enough to be worth a full civ slot in this game

For China, the difference lies more in different time period rather than different regions (different regions are very different, yes, but not enough to make a full civ). For instance, Qin and Tang are obviously culturally and politically different.