[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[ButtBillionaire]

Hard pass on another "Viking" or "Norse" civilisation. Denmark, Norway and Sweden were never the same kingdom. There was never a single "Norse" people or culture. If a Civ game must have a representative for the Viking Age and its legacy, let it simply be Denmark or Norway. Or, if we want something new, we could even consider Iceland or the Kievan Rus'. Whatever is picked, one hope I have is that if they really want a leader who goes on and on about how much they love Odin, they'll pick someone who actually worshipped those gods for once.

I am generally in favour of deblobbing - may we never see "Polynesia" or the "Celts" again - and I support deblobbing any civ that deserves it.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Hard pass on another "Viking" or "Norse" civilisation. Denmark, Norway and Sweden were never the same kingdom. There was never a single "Norse" people or culture. If a Civ game must have a representative for the Viking Age and its legacy, let it simply be Denmark or Norway. Or, if we want something new, we could even consider Iceland or the Kievan Rus'. Whatever is picked, one hope I have is that if they really want a leader who goes on and on about how much they love Odin, they'll pick someone who actually worshipped those gods for once.

I am generally in favour of deblobbing - may we never see "Polynesia" or the "Celts" again - and I support deblobbing any civ that deserves it.

Hawaii is a good Polynesian Civ that doesn't have blobbing and also a very fascinating history. Although we have the Maori, it wouldn't hurt to include Hawaii.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Interestingly, Civ VI chooses a Viking leader who was one of the least Viking-like IRL, but the Viking civ overall is still pretty Viking.

hardrada is often called the last viking king, so he’s not a terrible choice, but he’s definitely not the best choice when you think of vikings with all their baggage: norse religion, pillaging, etc.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

hardrada is often called the last viking king, so he’s not a terrible choice, but he’s definitely not the best choice when you think of vikings with all their baggage: norse religion, pillaging, etc.

I like him for the fact that he is a Varangian. Those guys were the Praetorians of Byzantium, except far more loyal. What makes this even more ironic is that the Varangians were technically mercenaries.
Here's a video from Kings and Generals about them:

 

[SirMediocrity]

I think I'm familiar with what Boris is referring to. I've been researching pre-Colombian contact theories recently (mainly in order to determine the credibility or lack thereof of Afrocentrism) and apparently there was a group of painting/mural things found at the Temple of the Warriors in Chichen Itza which have some guys who kinda look like Europeans. The contrast in colors has been used by some less-mainstream historians to aid their conclusion that the Celts/Vikings (some claims vary) and Africans visited Mesoamerica before Columbus. Here are some of them now.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I think I'm familiar with what Boris is referring to. I've been researching pre-Colombian contact theories recently (mainly in order to determine the credibility or lack thereof of Afrocentrism) and apparently there was a group of painting/mural things found at the Temple of the Warriors in Chichen Itza which have some guys who kinda look like Europeans. The contrast in colors has been used by some less-mainstream historians to aid their conclusion that the Celts/Vikings (some claims vary) and Africans visited Mesoamerica before Columbus. Here are some of them now.

If my knowledges served me correctly - my last time touching a research on Mayan art it's like 5 years ago - many (if not most of) Mayan murals and painting on the manuscripts had Mayan kings and aristocrats and their servants painted in a brown or dark skin.

Edit: That probably means the ancient Mayans considered themselves as dark skin people, so it is not a concrete evidence to indicate an African presence.

 

[SirMediocrity]

If my knowledges served me correctly - my last time touching a research on Mayan art it's like 5 years ago - many (if not most of) Mayan murals and painting on the manuscripts had Mayan kings and aristocrats and their servants painted in a brown or dark skin.

Edit: That probably means the ancient Mayans considered themselves as dark skin people, so it is not a concrete evidence to indicate an African presence.

In my opinion, it's not the fact that they represent themselves as dark which is important. What really matters is the differing levels of color present (there are darker and lighter-skinned people in the murals).

And I agree completely that these murals aren't enough to prove a pre-Columbian African presence in America. In general, most evidence for such a thing is rather circumstantial in my estimation.

 

[8housesofelixir]

In my opinion, it's not the fact that they represent themselves as dark which is important. What really matters is the differing levels of color present (there are darker and lighter-skinned people in the murals). And I agree completely that these murals aren't enough to prove a pre-Columbian African presence in America. In general, most evidence for such a thing is rather circumstantial in my estimation.

In the first picture, the lighter-skinned people dresses the same as other (darker) Mayans - notice how they were depicted as dressing a Mesoamerican loincloth.

I also looked through some other Mayan mural collections, and it is very obvious that Mayan artists will sometimes depicted a variety of different levels of skin colors in the same scene - from light to red-ish to brown to dark - in their artworks. I assume that both dark skin or light skin are very common perceptions of people in the minds of Mayan artists.

So, yeah, most "evidence" are rather circumstantial.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please let us get back on topic.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . Any source of this one? Because there are a lot of people claimed that they were the first civilization that "landed in America and had a contact with the Mayans" but cannot provide sufficient evidences.

To my knowledge the Norse activities in America were limited to north (Canadian and Newfoundland coasts) and they never reached anywhere southern than New England.

My reference is Valerie Hansen's The Year 1000. New York: Scribner, 2020. The point of the book is that 1000 CE was the real start of 'globalization' in trade, and her Chapter Two is entitled: "Go West, Young Viking". She includes some of the Mayan art from Chichen Itza that @Mediocrity also referenced in her color plates, specifically two depictions of men with blond hair and one of a high-prowed ship showing signs of plank straking on its sides - typical of Norse ship building but not of Mayan.

Hansen, by the way, is a professor of Chinese history at Yale University, and has done some other studies of Chinese trade and the Silk Road. In this book she also has an extensive chapter on the Chinese trade with Southeast Asia and modern Indonesia in addition to the Indian Ocean trade between India, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, part of her thesis that World Trade and 'Globalization' was already present in 1000 CE.

Not sure I buy her entire construct, but she does make a case for contact maybe or maybe not including 'trade' between New Mexico and Mexico/Mayan territory, then Mayans and the Norse, the Norse and the Silk Road (as I mentioned above), and China and everybody east of Baghdad and west of Hawaii.

Makes me want to set up a Civ VI game in which the sole object is to see how early I can set up a chain of Trading Posts from one side of the map to the other . . .

 

[8housesofelixir]

My reference is Valerie Hansen's The Year 1000. New York: Scribner, 2020. The point of the book is that 1000 CE was the real start of 'globalization' in trade......Hansen, by the way, is a professor of Chinese history at Yale University, and has done some other studies of Chinese trade and the Silk Road. In this book she also has an extensive chapter on the Chinese trade with Southeast Asia and modern Indonesia in addition to the Indian Ocean trade between India, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, part of her thesis that World Trade and 'Globalization' was already present in 1000 CE.

I agree with this part; "globalization" happened considerably early (for example, how gunpower spread to the west and how musket spread back to the east - that happened earlier than Vasco da Gama), and Silk Road was a crucial part of it.

That's why I constantly advocate for a Sogdia civ - they were the people who dominated and maintained the Silk Road for at least 600 years. The Indian Ocean trade was another crucial "globalization" link - and Chola was one of the master of this region; that's also why I'm in support of a Chola civ. My advocate for Kublai is for the same reason.

(The Abbasid Caliphate was another crucial actor in the Indian Ocean, they even set up an Arab community in Canton/Guangzhou during Tang for trade purposes, but we already have a religious-scientific Arabia, so maybe next time.) (Also, I read Hansen's work on Silk Road before - it is fascinating - but, if someone would like to argue for a pre-Columbus trade connection between the Old World and the New World, Polynesians may be a better choice...but that will be way off-topic so let's stop here.)

Makes me want to set up a Civ VI game in which the sole object is to see how early I can set up a chain of Trading Posts from one side of the map to the other . . .

That's also what I always want as well - as you can probably tell from my fetish of trading between the East and the West above.

I think, currently, Mongolia (instant trading posts, can make very long trade routes early) and Maori (can meet everyone before Medieval Era, can utilize naval trade routes early) are the civs that can create an early global trading empire.

A peaceful and trade-orientated Mongolia game would be very interesting.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If we are going off the idea that they've decided to put Portugal in the last pack, I think that there might be a small chance that they've seen requests from all over and might decide to do a few more DLC after the NFP and give us civs things that have been asked for:
One more NA tribe and a North Africa civ plus an Egyptian leader at least which seems to be the most glaring omissions.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

A peaceful and trade-orientated Mongolia game would be very interesting.

If ever we have Kubilai Khan as an alternate leader for Mongolia (and if he has the long-forgotten ability of gaining a Eureka and an Inspiration each time a trade route is finished), then you'll dream might come true (and I for sure would want such a civ to happen).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If ever we have Kubilai Khan as an alternate leader for Mongolia (and if he has the long-forgotten ability of gaining a Eureka and an Inspiration each time a trade route is finished), then you'll dream might come true (and I for sure would want such a civ to happen).

Although that might just make it easier for him to get his Ordu and Kheshigs quicker, not necessarily make him peaceful.

 

[fatalitod]

I don't particularly want Portugal, especially if it's a choice between Portugal and a native North American civ. I'm hoping they put Portugal in the next pack and a North American civ in this one, specifically the Iroquois.
Then, if there is another pack, I'd like to see Portugal and Italy, the Navajo, Assyria/Hittites and an alternate Egyptian leader, Hawai'i, Tibet and Siam, and the Berbers.

And after that all of the civs on my wishlist would be in the game. EDIT: Though I wouldn't say no to an arctic North American or indigenous Siberian civ.

 

[Zaarin]

Although that might just make it easier for him to get his Ordu and Kheshigs quicker, not necessarily make him peaceful.

Maybe he could put a fleet together and invade Japan.

 

[notNamed]

Maybe he could put a fleet together and invade Japan.

I mean, he was talked out of the third planned invasion because the 6 (3 in Vietnam, 2 in Japan, 1 in Indonesia) or so disastrous campaigns drained every last cent of the Yuan empire's treasure and back then, just like today, no one was willing to make ships, provisions and equipment for free and his history made further loans impossible. So an economy savvy Kubilai is bad news for Japanese (who ended up just as drained and broke after the invasions' conclusion... ultimately killing the first shogunate).

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I mean, he was talked out of the third planned invasion because the 6 (3 in Vietnam, 2 in Japan, 1 in Indonesia) or so disastrous campaigns drained every last cent of the Yuan empire's treasure and back then, just like today, no one was willing to make ships, provisions and equipment for free and his history made further loans impossible. So an economy savvy Kubilai is bad news for Japanese (who ended up just as drained and broke after the invasions' conclusion... ultimately killing the first shogunate).

So Kublai Khan's ability should have a negative part with a malus in strength for naval units...?

 

[SMcM]

I don't particularly want Portugal, especially if it's a choice between Portugal and a native North American civ. I'm hoping they put Portugal in the next pack and a North American civ in this one, specifically the Iroquois.

Last I saw general opinion was that another pack seems unlikely- one of the devs even said in the video earlier this month that they felt they couldn't leave Babylon out of the game- perhaps inidication that they are making sure to include all the series staples before they wrap up for Civilization VI. I would think it was shame to not have another native American civilization, but tbh I'd much rather see the Portuguese added if this is the last content for the game.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Maybe he could put a fleet together and invade Japan.

Honestly I'd kind of want the ability to go like this:
Silk Road- Grants a free eureka/inspiration after every completed trade route with a civ for the first time. -10 combat strength in naval combat.

Basically makes it an incentive for him to exclusively focus trading on land as naval units wouldn't particularly help in protecting traders over water.