Civilization VII Civs and Leaders Wishlist [Not a Prediction]

[GeneralZift]

Instead of a good leader and bad leader dynamic, which opens a can of worms, why not do this...

Why not have "real leader" (historical head of state) and "figurative leader" (person of importance to the culture. This is for mythological figures, leaders who aren't head of state, and other oddball picks)

EDIT:

It could be
Queen Elizabeth and King Arthur
Napoleon and Jeanne dArc
Chandragupta and Gandhi

Or it could be a combination of this idea and general alternates.

 

[Aurelesk]

Why??

Someone would rather die than playing as Thatcher. She would appear as reasonable when compared to him

He was the key-component of the Reign of Terror which lead to more casualties than the War of the Second Coalition. French People are still thinking today that Napoléon was not only a good guy, but a savior figure just by contrast. This is how awful he was. Sure, he had good ideas too, but a legacy is made by the actions taken (or not taken), not only by the ideals.

I don’t think Civ will ever have Stalin again, no matter what his civ is called.

Wu Zetian is already in both Civ 5 and Civ 6, so I don’t think they see a problem with her.

Fair enough for Stalin. I was imagining if he was coming back, by what mean he could without being too problematic. Probably Soviet Union is too recent to be represented, but it did shape the world of today. Khrushchev as an anti-Stalin could do it, probably the only Soviet leader that is considered to have done more good than bad (but would rob Nicholas II as a leader...).

For Wu Zetian, I heard from the Chinese community that it was a Seondeok case again. But we hear more people complaining than those who like. She managed to pass in Civilization VI while Yongle needed a "fix". So yeah, I misjudged the problem (as there is none).

 

[Morningcalm]

Seondeok and Wu Zetian are both great choices IMO. That a vocal minority of whiny males dislikes them shouldn't prevent Firaxis from appointing them again in the future. Both of them accomplished major feats that moved the needle forward in their respective civilizations.

I don't expect Stalin or Mao or even FDR to make return appearances anytime soon (due to mass murder in the cases of Stalin and Mao, and due to the internment of Japanese-Americans in FDR's case, about which George Takei has been very vocal).

I also hope Firaxis won't pick Jefferson for the USA, given that he had a child with a slave (verified by DNA evidence, and acknowledged by Monticello), and the implicit power imbalance there.

 

[Leyrann]

Seondeok and Wu Zetian are both great choices IMO. That a vocal minority of whiny males dislikes them shouldn't prevent Firaxis from appointing them again in the future. Both of them accomplished major feats that moved the needle forward in their respective civilizations.

I don't expect Stalin or Mao or even FDR to make return appearances anytime soon (due to mass murder in the cases of Stalin and Mao, and due to the internment of Japanese-Americans in FDR's case, about which George Takei has been very vocal).

I also hope Firaxis won't pick Jefferson for the USA, given that he had a child with a slave (verified by DNA evidence, and acknowledged by Monticello), and the implicit power imbalance there.

If we're going to disqualify rulers because they had a bastard child in a disparate power context (aka literally any extramarital child for a head of state), we might as well just fill the roster with mythological rulers entirely.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Fair enough for Stalin. I was imagining if he was coming back, by what mean he could without being too problematic. Probably Soviet Union is too recent to be represented, but it did shape the world of today. Khrushchev as an anti-Stalin could do it, probably the only Soviet leader that is considered to have done more good than bad (but would rob Nicholas II as a leader...).

I unironically wouldn't mind Nicholas II, or Rasputin outright, for the flawed Russian ruler.

 

[Arcaian]

If we're going to disqualify rulers because they had a bastard child in a disparate power context (aka literally any extramarital child for a head of state), we might as well just fill the roster with mythological rulers entirely.

I've got no real dog in the race for this american leader discussion, but "disparate power context" is a pretty disgusting euphemism here; while there's a real concern about the power imbalance in a relationship where one is a head of state (and why does extramarital make a difference if the marriage happened during their holding the power of the head of state?), having a child with someone who you literally own is unquestionably rape, and equating it to the possibility of sexual coercion from the power imbalance of a head of state feels dismissive of the reality of the act being discussed, at least to me.

 

[Krajzen]

Do you guys have any proposals for the female ruler of
- Germany
- Arabia
- Persia
I can figure out at least one great candidate for every other staple civ, but fail with those.

Well there are also Aztec and Inca but here I don't even have much hope
maybe some mythological women...

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Germany - Maria Theresa

Arabia - al-Khayzuran, Shaghab, Shajar al-Durr

Perisa has just 2-3 female rulers, with extremely brief reigns. I can't think of any regent or royal spouse who wielded a significant amount of power

 

[GeneralZift]

Do you guys have any proposals for the female ruler of
- Germany
- Arabia
- Persia
I can figure out at least one great candidate for every other staple civ, but fail with those.

Well there are also Aztec and Inca but here I don't even have much hope
maybe some mythological women...

Are you thinking of a Male / Female for each Civ wishlist ?

 

[Bensi]

Hi i cant wait and see how Civ 7 will be. Im kinda hoping Civ4 in new suit (CIV4 graphic) Hope they add Iceland, gigantic earth map, better and detailed settings for Hotseat.

 

[FishFishFish]

- Germany

Theophanu? Although a Byzantine leading Germany would be kinda strange.

 

[FishFishFish]

Shaghab

I'd be very disappointed with see her as leader. In Arabic, shaghab means trouble. And true to her name, she abused her son’s reliance on her to empower herself. Thus normalizing some downright empire-ending corruption. To me, she would represent the terminal decline of the Abbasids after her spouse's brief restoration.

 

[Leyrann]

I've got no real dog in the race for this american leader discussion, but "disparate power context" is a pretty disgusting euphemism here; while there's a real concern about the power imbalance in a relationship where one is a head of state (and why does extramarital make a difference if the marriage happened during their holding the power of the head of state?), having a child with someone who you literally own is unquestionably rape, and equating it to the possibility of sexual coercion from the power imbalance of a head of state feels dismissive of the reality of the act being discussed, at least to me.

I would agree with you if I believed that a servant at a medieval court had any more choice in the matter than an American slave if the king took an interest in her. Let alone the numerous rulers who took concubines.

It doesn't matter that the slave is nominally in a weaker position than the servant. In practice neither had any choice in the matter.

Do you guys have any proposals for the female ruler of
- Germany
- Arabia
- Persia
I can figure out at least one great candidate for every other staple civ, but fail with those.

Well there are also Aztec and Inca but here I don't even have much hope
maybe some mythological women...

There's a Civ VI mod that adds Shajar al-Durr as leader of Arabia, and another which adds a Sassanid civilization with Boran as one of it's possible leaders. You may judge whether or not they're relevant enough to justify.

There's also Aisha for Arabia, but that might be too close to uncomfortable subjects for Firaxis. I also don't think she ever actually led, with most of her impact being religious in nature.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Do you guys have any proposals for the female ruler of
- Germany
- Arabia
- Persia
I can figure out at least one great candidate for every other staple civ, but fail with those.

Well there are also Aztec and Inca but here I don't even have much hope
maybe some mythological women...

Scheherazade was the female Persian leader of Civ 2 if you want to go mythological with them. Maybe she could count for Arabia too?

 

[Leyrann]

Oh right, for Persia I was thinking a really off-beat choice could be Esther.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure if she's even attested to outside the bible, but considering we've got archeological evidence backing up the existence of both David and Solomon these days (if not some of the claims made about them in the bible), I feel it's a safe assumption that Esther was, at the very least, a historical figure.

The bigger issue would be that her claim to fame doesn't actually have anything to do with Persia, but rather the Jews living in Persia.

Also, Merkel for Germany.

 

[Krajzen]

All of your examples guys are either religiously controversial (Aisha), entirely or borderline legendary, empress of Austria ruling Germany (I know, I know... but I would prefer to avoid mixing them) or not very accomplished

Female leader of Germany, Arabia or Austria doesn't need to be lone ruler (in fact I think we don't have many to choose from), just a powerful historical "woman behind the throne" (or "next to the throne") Can we seriously lack them for cultures with such massive history? I think it's just knowlegde gap

Shehrezade has the bonus quality of being the most "orientalist Western stereotype" imaginable ruler of Persia I can think of Now Alexander's Hetairoi you have reminded me of the eldritch horror that was civ2 male and female rulers list. Behold, more notable of those being:

Arabia: Saladin and [none]
Aztecs: Montezuma and "Nazca"
Babylon: Hammurabi and Ishtar
Greece: Alexander and Hippolyta (you know, mythical queen of Amazons)
Inca: Atahualpa (lol) and [none]
Japan: Tokugawa and Amaterasu
Persia: Xerxes and Sheherezade
Sioux: Sitting Bull and Sacajawea
Zulu: Shaka and "Shakala"

And last but not least: India got Mohandas Gandhi... And Indira Gandhi.

I can't even decide which of those "female rulers" is the most embarassing one.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

All of your examples guys are either religiously controversial (Aisha), entirely or borderline fictional, empress of Austria ruling Germany (I know, I know... but I would prefer to avoid mixing them) or not very accomplished

Well probably best to leave some civs without having an obligatory female leader, for that matter.
As for Germany, I wonder if Maud/Matilda would work considering she was Empress of the Holy Roman Empire, even ruling as a regent though in Italy, before the Anarchy in England happened.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I've posted on this before, long ago, but a good candidate for 'near the throne' Leader of Germany would be Louisa (Luise Auguste Wilhelmine Amalie) of Prussia, wife/queen of Friedrich Wilhelm III. Her husband was an utter non-entity whose state and army got crushed by Napoleon in 1806, but Louisa was a real power behind the throne. She died relatively young in 1810, which caused Napoleon himself to remark that Prussia had "lost its best Minister" and earlier he called her "the only real man in Prussia". She was very nearly the first Queen or Queen Consort in Prussia to have a public role, traveling with her husband to visit the provinces, negotiating treaties, and becoming famous for her charity work. She also, however, encouraged the military reformers in Prussia like Scharnhorst and Gneisnau and so was instrumental in establishing the Grosser Generalstab that was the basis for Prussia and Germany's military excellence for the next century.

She was called by Prussian subjects the "soul of national virtue" and sometimes referred to as "Prussian nationalism personified". In 1814, 4 years after her death, the Order of Louisa was established in Prussia as the feminine version of the Iron Cross, to be awarded to women who had contributed significantly to the war effort.

She would make a most interesting leader, potentially combining a rare military/diplomatic emphasis with a domestic Loyalty/Patriotism and Charity work.

 

[ldvhl]

Aztecs: Montezuma and "Nazca"

The Nazca weren't even on the same continent and were a couple hundred years separate.

 

[Patine]

Empress of Austria ruling Germany (I know, I know... but I would prefer to avoid mixing them)

There's no mixing, at all. Maria Theresa was a German leader.