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Civilizations Reborn

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by 1SDAN, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Merged latest DoC

    Meant to do this in the last update but forgot to
     
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  2. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Thanks for the fix, it helped. Glad I could help at least with playtesting and the bug reports. I expect bugs here. I should report them earlier. I actually noticed even the low trade route income, but somehow I got used to it and didn't play the main branch recently to compare :).
    Playtested a little more, so I'll post some bugs in one post each.
     
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  3. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    This is just a presentational one. I do not have Theology yet, but the effect of monasteries of the state religion is shown as this is counted. When the building is finished, it adds the correct +2 :science: only.

    Also, isn't it a little too much? My total research of this city is 24 with 100% research. Orthodox Monastery shows + 9.80:science:. That is even more than the flat +2 and 15 % more with Theology...
    Seems it adds flat +2 (we have now) and 7.80, which is 32,5 % out of 24. It looks like 10 % as an original value in the main branch + (15 % for Theology and maybe it is multiplied double to 22,5 % ? ) = tptal of 32,5 %.

    Tried a save (1700 AD Ottomans) with Theology and without the Scientific method and it works correctly - adding flat +2 and then 40 % for library and monastery of the state religion.

    monastery.JPG
     
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  4. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Here, I played Ethiopia again. I was Unstable and started revolution. Wasnt a good idea as Nubia has respawned. What baffles me, is the fact Nubia took also both cities of the Ethiopian core, including my capital Aksum. Is that OK? Just open the AD 816 save and press Enter to end turn.

    I also got some problems with stability - ok, I understand I have just 2 core cities and 4 foreign, but Aksum is 100 % Ethiopian and tooltip says that I have Cultural control: "expansion stability penalty". Might this be related to my stability issues? I checked some older save before 1 AD and it is the same there.
    I actually checked some previous game where I moved my capital 1 SE to the cow tile and this tooltip with stability penalty is not there. Maybe some bug in the map for Nubia?

    I also played this a little more by returning back to some previous save and got to Medieval age. Before researching the Medieval tech (Fortification) my stability was Shaky. Almost nothing changed and I thought Medieval era should multiply my core cities more. It helped in a previous game. In fact, the expansion stability got even worse and I was back to Unstable... Might be all related to the same problem.

    expansion_stability_capital.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Yeah, I haven't really figured out how to properly get the UI working for the state religion commerce changes. I've been looking into it but am not very good at UI stuff. I believe it should function correctly, the UI commerce prediction is just not prepared for it.
     
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  6. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Chieftain

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    One last civ suggestion:

    Yuezhi/Kushan Empire:

    The idea is to have a nomad civ in Classical age that can make things more interesting in Central Asia before the Turks spawn, replacing the some of the barbarian/indy spawns (including the Silk Road and its cities) with a proper civ to develop the area and spread Buddhism (and also building the Salsal Buddha wonder, which I personaly rarely see). Given that we have art for this civ, including its LHs in History Rewritten, we could easily add it.

    Spawn/Location: 400 BCE/Dunhuang (earliest mention of the Yuezhi)
    Leader: Kadphises, Kanishka
    Color/Symbol: ?
    Expansion stability: given that the Kushan Empire was a result of the Yuezhi migrations, the idea is to have some core shifts during the game. Initially, the core would be the area of Gansu province in China, with historical expansion in the Taklamakan Desert and Bactria. After conquering a city in Bactria, the core would shift to the Hindu Kush and Gandhara, while the historical areas would be argably the territories conquered by the empire in its maximum extension, including all the Indus Valley and significant portions of East Persia and North India. Ideally, the historical expansion would shrink dramatically by 450 CE accompanied of barbarian spawns (White Huns invasions) to induce the collapse of the civ.

    UP: The power of Syncretism (non-state religions don't affect the stability or provide unhappiness, + 1 culture and + 1 gold per non-state religion).
    Refers to the cultural syncretism of the Kushan Empire, a mix of nomad Indo-Aryan, Bactrian, Persian, Hindu and Greek heritage that greatly promoted the spread of Buddhism and established commercial links with far away empires, including China and Rome.

    UU1: Avaska (replaces Horseman, starts with Mobility promotion and doesn't have combat penalty when attacking cities).
    Is the same barbarian unit that currently spawn in North India. Although this unit is more properly Indo-Iranian than Yuezhi, I think that fits well with then, given that the early Kushan state adopted armored cavalry corps after conquering these peoples.
    UU2: Trishula (replaces Spearman, + 25% attacking cities) or Yukhuna Purma (replaces Horse Archer, doesn't have combat penalty when attacking cities)
    I'm not certain about this second UU, so suggestions are welcome. The first unit comes from History Rewritten and is certainly ahistorical, however represents the Indo-Greek infantry tradition in the area. The second is representative from early Yuezhi times, when their armies were made from horse archers. The name comes from Europa Barbarorum and supposely means Yuezhi Cavalry.

    UB: Gandharan Stupa (replaces Pagan Temple, can be built even if a religion is present, give + 1 happiness) or Carved Statues (replaces Monument, + 15% production when building religious buildings or wonders)
    Again, I'm not certain about the UB and would love some suggestions because I couldn't find any good candidate. The first is a reference to the Gandhara Archictecture with the Greek-Buddhist blend that was influential in the development of following stupas and pagodas. The second represents their tradition of carving Buddha statues in mountains (of which the more famous and monumental were the Bamyan Buddhas).

    UHV:
    1) The Kushan Empire: have a capital in the Hindu Kush region with a developing culture by 30 CE.
    2) The Centerpoint of Major Civilizations: have Open Border agreements with four different civs or have trade routes with four different civs by 200 CE.
    3) Greco-Buddhist tradition: build Salsa Buddha and eight temples (any religion) by 400 CE.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  7. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Indeed, it's just UI. Checked games with Theology to find real effects.
    I am not sure what problems you are aware of unfortunately, so I am reporting it (to save the work for others and make them aware about it too).

    There are also empty welcome messages, when you meet a civ for the first time, but I assume you know that :).
     
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  8. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Yeah, sorry for the lack of a known bugs section. I'm aware of the empty welcome messages. I've since realized it's most likely due to missing greetings that existed in the mods I took the leaderheads from. They're rather low priority. Of far greater importance is the scrolling scoreboard I've just been bashing my head against a brick wall trying to implement.
     
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  9. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Good points for Omani, thanks. I'm trying them now.
    Got a Python exception there when displaying Victory conditions (F8).
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG
    Looked into the code and this line 4938 in Victory.py needs utils.getTurns instead of getTurns
    aHelp.append(getIcon(data.iOmaniTradeGold >= getTurns(2000)) + localText.getText("TXT_KEY_VICTORY_ACQUIRED_GOLD", (data.iOmaniTradeGold, utils.getTurns(2000))))

    I tested it (very briefly) and it worked.

    I've started using Despotism heavily, getting trade routes and trading techs a lot. Emperor level. So far (starting late Medieval tech column) I'm doing well, lacking 1-2 techs from the best civs and ahead of most. I guess priority will be Firearms and with a great tech output I hope to get there before any wars. Feeling like a trading middleman with friends from Japan to Moors.

    I prevented myself from using World view CTRL+W by locking the game with a random password and then found I have to start a new game to test the fix above as that old save is protected from modifying the assets. That wasn't probably the brightest idea :).

    But after that restart I saw a way different situation. Previously my part of peninsula was empty and my capital on the plains hill took even the pearls tile (and I built also some cultural buildings by whipping to keep them for now as the nearest Arab city was in the same distance to pearls tile). Thats an extra happy face and commerce.

    In the screen below (second start) I see Arabs took city of Kufah 1E from pearls and they even built a city 1N of camels. Not complaining here, but I'm afraid the start might be very random, depending on cities around. If we expect camels to belong to Omani, can this tile be Core? It is historical now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG
     
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  10. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Fixed.

    It's great to hear you're enjoying their gameplay. From my testing, their style of play is rather unique in its heavy focus on defense, careful expansion, and trade.

    On Regent the start is rather consistent, though I haven't tested higher difficulties much.

    I chose the camels to not be part of their Core largely as I wanted to encourage them to largely focus on their capital until after the initial series of foreign conquests. I don't particularly want to encourage players to bite off more than they can chew.
     
  11. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Thanks.
    Did you build a second city? I did that immediately (south-west direction on coast), otherwise Yemeni would expand there. Still wondering if that was a good idea. But I don't consider Yemeni to be dangerous and it might be profitable to let them declare war when they are cornered and then conquer the capital.

    Is it intentional that all UHVs lack an year to complete? Especially does the goal "Never lose a city" mean playing till the very end of the game (someone may win by space race) or does it get completed when the other UHVs are?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
  12. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    "Never lose a city" is technically always complete until you lose it. The idea was to give the Omani game a unique type of tension that other UHVs don't have where you must conquer your enemies and grow your economy while balancing your stability and ensuring none of the numerous invasions you'll end up facing will take one of your cities.

    It is indeed intentional that the UHVs all lack a completion year. This mod has largely been me experimenting with different kinds of gameplay, and I wanted to try out a sort of "speedrun" civ with the Omanis. They're difficult enough on their own with the Ottoman and Portugese invasions, so I decided to not put expiration dates on the UHV conditions.

    As a side note: I love how frequently I've seen the AI Yemeni conquer Mecca but be unable to expand further like IRL. That's what I love so much about this game: with the right settler map, core, leaderhead behavior, etc, AIs will reproduce history entirely naturally.
     
  13. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    I've finished the Omani UHV with trade deals pretty early (1400s) and I'll give some feedback to it. I'd say it was too easy even on Emperor/Epic as the tech sales count to it as well. Omani are teching maybe too well (on the other hand, yes, they lack resources and need the guns). There are many less advanced civs and I sold them techs even cheaply, getting gold, better relations and gold for UHV. Now I'm in the mid Renaissance with 3 cities and still no other civ is way ahead, maybe 1-2 civs are at a similar level. I even tried to be first at Economics (failed by few turns, maybe could win it if giving it priority) and built two wonders successfully.

    I think another fact which makes it too easy is the Scout's ability to pass through other civ's territory without Open Borders. I know it is one of the changes of this modmod, but it does not fit for both gaming perspective and a historical one. First, it makes you to spam scouts early, get contacts with the whole Old World, get trade routes, trade techs etc. This is too easy without having to secure the Open Borders. IMO, the creators of Civ wanted to have closed borders for a reason. You should work on improving the relations with the other civ to pass through and get contacts with more civilizations behind them. Or bypass them through other means (caravels coming much later or spies) or war.

    Plus, it allows any civ to explore another territory just before war. Originally there was even a hint in CIV telling something like "think before opening the borders, maybe the AI is scouting your territory to sell it to the highest bidder". Again, there is a reason why you have to gain a lot of espionage points to get a city visible.

    Historically, if the other nation closed borders, even scouting their territory was impossible. I've read a book Conquerors (about Portuguese exploration and colonization of India) by Roger Crowley and the Portuguese (or any European civ) didn't have much info about the Muslim world or areas behind it in the Middle Ages. Muslim civs, Mongolia, everyone blocked the way. Portuguese sent two spies to Egypt and areas behind to explore it secretly. That's better for a game than using cheap and fast scouts.

    I don't want to criticize though, I really like this game. Will have some feedback to the wars once when I win them all, now I am needed on the desert battlefields!
     
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  14. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Actually I think this was some event. When Arabs collapsed, Yemeni just took Mecca even without declaring war or anything.
     
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  15. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    When buying the resources (yes, I am that rich), I noticed the accumulated gold in UHV in F8 advisor actually decreases each turn. I am not sure if this is intended or not.
    I suppose the trade income is added there each turn, regardless of being positive or negative.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
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  16. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    New Update

    Oman's Trade Gold should no longer be reduced when buying resources
    Scouts and Explorers may no longer enter rival territory
    Increased Omani maintenance modifiers
    Omani UHV now requires 4000 Gold

    Thank you so very much for the help @Rodnok

    After looking further into the Yemen and Mecca scenario, it seems that Mecca may be flipping to Yemen due to a large amount of Yemeni Culture within the city.
     
  17. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Some notes to myself on the Hittites before I forget. I am currently working on a civilization-based Jeopardy board to play with my dad, so no this does not indicate any near term plans. I'm still having difficulty figuring out how CNM renames work. Boii won't rename itself when the Romans flip it.

    Rename the Constantinople tile to Wilusa while controlled by the Hittites and Troy by the Greeks. While not exactly geographically accurate, it would help ensure Greece doesn't settle the tile ahistorically early, reflects a famous event, and the Dardanelles strait creates a situation that I assume would have been similar to the situation with the Bosporus.

    UB: Pankus - Replaces Courthouse. Requires some tech that they should be able to discover circa 1500 BC. Reflects the Pankus that turned the Hittites into the first Constitutional Monarchy in history. Probably do something like halve its cost, double its maintenance reduction, and give the hittites a rather egregious number of cities maintenance modifier. By the way, did you know that the Hittites abolished capital punishment?

    UHV1: The Hayasa-Azzi Treaty - Be the first to discover contract and be the first civilization to have a vassal. Reflects the first peace treaty in history having been between the Hayasa-Azzi Confederation and Hittites, which resulted in the former becoming the vassal of the latter. An elegant way to represent their military history without imposing specific ahistorical conquests.
    UHV2: Have Pleased or better relations with 3 nations you declared war on by ? (maybe 1180 BC? Going to need to test how much can actually be done in 800 years). Reflects their status as pioneers of politics and diplomacy. Combos nicely with the +1 Statesmen from courthouses. Incentivizes declaring war on other nations and suing for peace ASAP.
    UHV3: The Bronze Age Collapse: Be the last surviving nation west of Persia with a capital founded before 1200 BC. Ahistorical goal. Encourages the destabilization of rivals and hopefully creates some risky war strategies focused on conquering capitals and suing for peace ASAP.

    Note: Look into adding a "Sea Peoples" event that triggers between 1100 and 1300 BC and halves trade route yields.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  18. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Just saw a strange respawn of Ukraine in my Omani game. There was Hungary (shaky),Poland,Russia (both unstable). Ukraine has respawned and took a big chunk of land. First turn - taking Buda, all Poland plus Kaliningrad, destroying them both. Also took Kiev and St. Petersburg, but that would be understandable. Next turn they got Belgrade (and it wasn't a war as they flipped units including Janissaries). Rus never controlled any of these places before, their last remnants from the previous life were in Crimea (which they didn't take this time).

    I saw something similar with Ethiopia/Nubia in the same game, when Nubia respawned, they took all Ethiopia core and then the opposite happened. And I had such a problem with my Ethiopia game back then.
    Aren't there some respawn maps which could be too big for new civs? I doubt their culture would reach that far (Buda and Belgrade), in my game my capital was 100% Ethiopian and still flipped.

    Save before Ukraine respawn attached.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  19. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    So, I finished the Omani UHV in 1752. Could be done faster probably.

    SPOILER (Can't insert the text as a proper spoiler, so don't read if you didnt finish Omani game yet).

    For me it was a little boring that there were no wars until AD 1500 or so. I was actually building Civic Square in the capital when the Portuguese arrived. And then Iran joined the party too.
    But that's probably caused by the location of Oman, as Turks rarely attack there, Yemeni are friendly and weak and Arabs have their own problems. If Yemeni would declare war, then the game would be too easy. Plus, before the arquebus even Omani are too weak.

    Portuguese built a single colony in my historical area (can't remember the name), landed troops and after some bloodbath they were all destroyed. Then kept peace and never arrived again. Their colony was the first city for UHV.

    I crossed the Gulf with Musketeers, took Shiraz (city #2) and then agreed to peace as I was expecting another invasion. Iran then became a vassal of Ottomans and I hastily built more troops. Absolutely nothing happened though. Maybe Ottomans were too busy with Ukraina (respawn in my previous post) who took even Constantinopole and that caused Iran to renounce vassal status.

    As Iran was alone, I attacked myself and took the 2 remaining cities in their mainland. I was curious if that would count for UHV but it does as they declared war before.

    I think there could be more wars, in the end it felt too easy even for Emperor level. Maybe that was caused by the situation. Portuguese did not build any cities in East Africa. That meant I had no business there as well.
    No naval fights expect the occassional barbarian heavy galleys and AI often killed them.

    I like the unique situation of Omani, you have to get production from farms, vassalage, armoury, manufactory... No metals: I used Trebuchet in Industrial era to kill the cultural defense of the city, then camels with withdraw.

    I wonder if they could actually win in the later eras as I used outdated civics till the end. Farms in desert got +1 more food in Industrial era, but would lost a hammer of production without Vassalage. Even Centralism didn't outweigh the loss.

    Omani teching is perhaps still too fast. Even in the end I was on par with the best civs. Never dropped research below 100 %.
     
  20. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    I would add more barbarian naval units especially in the Middle Ages, even more of them coming at once. They could spawn even in the Persian Gulf if it is not fully controlled culturally. That would force a player to build some navy.
     
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