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Civilizations Reborn

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by 1SDAN, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Started Yemeni briefly.
    First thing I noticed: the trade will be harder than with the Omani. No one likes me. But that's not bad.
    Second: the accumulated culture actually decreases in the capital early, before I built some more cultural buildings. I even dropped below 15 threshold for a free specialist. That's probably caused by the strong Arab culture from Mecca, maybe the Emperor level makes it harder too.

    Third (the real problem, will try again later): Mamluks declared war to me immediately after their spawn! Why me, why not Arabs? I didn't even see Mamluks. They had open borders with Arabs and evil Mamluk guys came to my capital for no reason :( Time to bed.
     
  2. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Yeah I found that in my playtesting too, I've been trying to find a way to organically get the Turks to invade, but if it's that much of an issue I think I'll include the Omani in the Turkic conqueror's event. I've also previously considered including the Qarmatians as barbarians or independents. I think I'll consider them again.

    I'll look into the Yemeni issue.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  3. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    New Update

    So apparently Normal Maps are used to determine which cities flip when a Civ resurrects. I have yet to find the code for why this happens but I did some testing and changing Normal Maps does indeed change which cities are flipped in some instances of resurrection.
    This should fix the issues with Nubia, Hungary and Ukraine, as well as similar but unreported issues with Burma, Chad, the Kazakhs, Oman, and Yemen
    Added a Turkic conquerors in Oman
    Added an independent Bahrein spawn to represent the Qarmatians under Abu Sa'id al-Jannabi
    Added barbarian spawns between 900 and 1000 AD around Bahrein to represent the Qarmatians under Abu Tahir al-Jannabi
    This not only makes Oman's UHV more challenging, but also Yemen's and technically Arabia's.
     
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  4. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Thanks. I actually started a quick try with Yemeni in 3000 BC scenario (more fun) and Mamluks were nice to me so far.
     
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  5. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    For Yemeni it would be nice to know what cities are in Arabian peninsula.
    For example Uru here probably does not belong to it. But for example 1S of Uru I am not sure.

    Uru.JPG
     
  6. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Seems I forgot to define the UI for that region. I'll fix that in the next update. For now, just use World Edit and hover over the Arabian peninsula with "select all tiles in region" enabled.

    Sorry for the trouble.
     
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  7. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Thanks, found it.
    Just posting for others in the meantime, it's as expected.
    Arabian_peninsula.JPG
     
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  8. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Chieftain

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    I know I've promised not make additional civ suggestions, but here goes another. I promise it will be last one :lol:

    Goths:
    Spoiler :

    I know that this is a more delicate and problematic proposal, given some historical aspects of the Goths and gameplay concerns. First, the Goths were a semi-nomad people and this condition is hard to represent in game. They also had a relatively short (at least in game terms) trajectory: they appear in historical record by the 3rd century CE and their successors disappear by the time of Moorish invasion of Visigoth Hispania (711). Another issue is that could make things messy and unbalanced in early Medieval Europe. I vaguely remember Leoreth being against moving the French spawn date to represent the Franks for gameplay reasons and that in the original Rhye's mod the early spawn date of France was moved to later given some issues. All things considered, it may be better to leave the Goths (and other Migration Period peoples and entities) represented as barbarians units and indy cities, however I think that their addition, if well thoght and implemented, could be really cool and fill the gap between the classical and medieval civs in Europe.

    Spawn/Location: 180 CE/Black Sea coast
    Although we have some evidences for early Goth migrations, I think that the spawn date should be around the time that they came to the Black Sea, the late 2nd century CE. Giving the short timespan of the civ (and the need to squeeze many turns as possible to make the civ viable), I suggest 180 CE, the end of Marcommanic Wars, which was one of the first large populational movements in the Migration Period and when several Germanic tribes were pushed South and East. The starting place could be the semi-legendary Árheimar, indentified with Dnieper river and can be autorazed on conquest/collapse, or Theodoro (or Doros), the Crimean Gothic capital that was settled with them in the late 5th century.
    Leaders: Cniva, Alaric and Theodoric, the latter two depending where is locate the Goth capital.
    Color/Symbol: Black or Grey/ the Visigoth eagle.
    Expansion stability: core intially in Western Black Sea coast and Crimea, shifts to Northern Italy and Northern Iberia/Southern Gaul when cities are conquered/founded in these regions. Historical in Dacia and Pannonia, Italy, Iberia, Southern Gaul and few titles in North Africa.

    UP: Furor Teutonicus (military units have + 15% strenght when attacking; starts a Golden Age when conquers an enemy capital)

    UU1: Gadrauhts (replaces Swordsman, can heal when pillaging).
    The name is "soldier" or "militiaman" in Gothic language. Represents the Gothic infantry tradition. The unit capability of healing when pillaging would help Goth players in their conquests (making quicker have full strenght units) and also mimics their historical raids and plundering (the Goths razed the Temple of Artemis, for exemple)
    UU2: Druhtiz (replaces Horseman, + 25% strenght against Melee Units).
    The name is the Germanic nomenclature for the Latin Comitatus, an armed retinue that was common in the context of Germanic warfare. This practice is a direct source of feudalism. The idea here is to represent the powerful Gothic Cavalry without using a generic "Gothic + Horseman" name.

    UB: Hermitage (replaces Monument, bonus culture when the city has a religion and offers a Artist slot) or Hov (replaces Pagan Temple, a small bonus when producing military units)
    I confess that is really hard to find an adequate UB for the Goths. After their nomadic phase, the Ostrogothic Kingdom lasted for only few decades and didn't leaved a big architectural legacy (in fact, they mostly tried to restore Roman buildings) besides the Mausoleum of Theodoric. The Visigoths lasted for much longer, however there are very few buildings that still exist and basically all of them were small churches and chapels. The Hermitage of Santa María de Lara is probably one of the most remarkable Visigoth buildings still left, so we can use the hermitage as an UB. The other possibility is the Hov (or Hof), used by other mods and that represents an Germanic pagan sancturay.

    UHV:
    The Ostrogothic Kingdom: have a capital in Italy and control three cities in Italy, Illyria and Pannonia by 550 CE
    The Visigothic Kingdom: have a capital in Iberia or Gaul and four cities in Iberia, France and North Africa by 700 CE.
    Gothic Codex: Be the first civ to discover Feudalism and produce 2000 culture by 800 CE.
    The UHV are pretty straight foward, representing their invasions on the Roman Empire and establishing new Barbarian Kingdoms, while the third is focused more on the cultural aspects of the Gothic legacy, particularly their contribution to the development of legal systems in post-Roman Europe.

    Notes:
    * to make the Goths a more viable civ, we could postpone the spawn of the Spanish from 722 (founding of Asturian Kingdom, actually under leadership of a Visigothic noble) to 910 (founding of Kingdom of León), so we have more turns of gameplay.
    * if the Goths are really included in the mod, we could consider making the French spawn earlier to represent the Franks and make the early Medieval Europe more interesting.
    * most of the art required to make the civ is already done in other mods, so we can borrow some to make this one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  9. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Dude, make as many suggestions as you want. They're amazing aid when I add new civs.
     
  10. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Chieftain

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    Thanks, I'm just happy to help!

    Speaking of, I've made some additional researches in mods/games/books about the Kushans (their history is fascinating and something that we, here in the West, almost don't know anything about), so I have a couple of new suggestions, particularly for their UB and UU. Just for the sake of remembering, my initial suggestions about them were made here.

    Spoiler UU :

    Originally, I've proposed two different UUs, the Avaska (Indo-Iranian barbarian unit already existent in game) and other unit being a Yuezhi Horse Archer or an infantry that represents the Indo-Greek tradition. I've been thinking and maybe the second UU really should be the Horse Archer (that I've named Yukhuna Purma). There are two strong reasons for that: 1) it is a good way to represent their nomadic origins and 2) is a unit that can be very useful for gameplay reasons. About the latter, we have to consider that the spawn area of the Yuezhi is poor in production and resources (with exception of luxury resources and they don't have immediate access to Iron or Cooper) and that their most likely enemies en route to India would be the Persians and possibly the Greeks, both having Spearman and Horseman UUs, so we need a Yuezhi UU capable of dealing with.
    If we still want a Indo-Greek UU (and I think they are really cool and exhotic), I suggest using the name Yona or Yavana, which were the terms used by the Indians to refer to the Hellenic (and Hellenized) populations in the region.


    Spoiler UB :

    I've also continued to looking a good UB for the Kushans/Yuezhi, and frankly still not found anything definitive. Nonetheless, I've found few mods that use a "Gandhara School" UB that represents their artistic and architectural tradition. Maybe could be a better alternative to the ones that I originally suggested, and we also have the art in the RFC Classical World and CIV Gold mods, if I'm not wrong. The UB could replace the Library with the same bonus proposed (+% production bonus for religious buildings to help in the UHV)


    Spoiler Leaders :

    Just a small suggestion here. We have a Kanishka LH art in the mods quoted above, making easier to add it.
    The earlier leader for the Yuezhi could be Spadbizes, which is the first documented ruler (although we are not really certain that he was Yuezhi) of them.
    Edit: turns out that we do have his LH in RFC Asia!
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  11. trevor

    trevor Warlord

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    I had to take something of a deep dive into looted Gandharan art recently for work & can very much second this opinion. It's wild to read about syncretic Greco-Buddhism or see a Herakles-Vajrapāni & think about what sort of conversations had to happen to create that culture.
     
  12. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    So, a few observations to Yemeni:

    - Decreasing culture in the capital is probably caused by the proximity of Mecca. I was losing it (around 1100 AD Arabs had 82 % cultural control in the city) even when producing some 20 culture per turn, so I had to run 100 % culture early on in order not to lose important tiles like sheep. That slows down the research and I have nothing
    But maybe it does not matter and I should have just conquer Mecca with anything I could get... I built a lot of cultural buildings first. Anyway, barbarian attacks made their archers stronger, so I waited for longbows.

    - I have both Trans-Saharan route and Silk road in Yemeni capital - is that ok?

    - The worst is Turks conqueror event against Oman, 1115 AD. IMO it is too strong now or it rather shouldnt be there. Did the Turks arrive there historically? Turks got 3 lancers, 3 heavy swordsmen, 2 trebuchets at the gates of Omani capital when I was just producing the first longbowmen. Maybe human Oman player could defend it somehow with the knowledge about that event and producing camel archers and longbows from the start, but for Yemeni it is impossible to defend another city with their other duties at this point. Omani had some 2-3 archers there.
    Even then, barbarian Bahrein would be hard to defend against Turks around the same time. In my game Mamluks conquered it just around 1100 AD, but then had some 2 weak units there.

    IMHO barbarian horse archers would be enough fun to make things harder (plus maybe some more barbarian pirates). I saw a stack of 5 of them going against Mecca and it wasnt a single case. Omani lost a city there.

    BTW not to mention Yemeni are supposed to defend Bahrein against Turks (unlike Omani UHV, who could ignore it and keep independent/barbarian) and they have no resources, even no camels.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
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  13. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    It seems I underestimated the update's impact on the Yemeni. The Turks did indeed conquer Bahrein and Musqat historically. I'll look into a way to give the Yemeni a fighting chance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
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  14. Crimean Lord

    Crimean Lord Warlord

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    Good Evening:)
    I've found strange issue: crash AFTER one turn after ISRAEL appears:D
    Of course - I've have a save before ONE turb before crash:)

    P.S. Also I've found that ussue is stable (because I retry to finish this turn more than 3 times)
     

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  15. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Strange, I can't even load that save.
     
  16. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    This isn't good. I'm getting an exe crash from this, not a DLL crash. You wouldn't happen to have a save from before this, do you?
     
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  17. Crimean Lord

    Crimean Lord Warlord

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    Well I found this one: ordinar autosave :cool:
    And after this turn - I'll get crash
     

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  18. Crimean Lord

    Crimean Lord Warlord

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    I've found an "key": re-install Assets from old version:)
    So: now there are no crashes!
    Great Thanks for attention:)
     
  19. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    Been trying to get an Ethiopian start with Nubia included. So far no luck (saw a lot of destroyed cities there, maybe Nubia is too weak now).

    But this was funny. Egyptians often found a city of Men in my core and if you wait 2 turns instead of founding a city (change civics), it will even become a good capital. This time they were so nice to found Orthodoxy in this city just a few turns ago (UHV is to convert to Orthodoxy).

    There are 8 workers now too (and a single Egyptian one did not change the flag and is still building a road there). Later some will find a job in Soylent Green Factory.

    Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG
     
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  20. HighFunctioningAlcoholic

    HighFunctioningAlcoholic Chieftain

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    What qualifies as being "the greatest city in all of Africa" for Nubia?
     

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