Clive01 - Warlords Prince Conquest / Domination

[The Sansman]

I am also of the opinion that waring before Astronomy will be difficult unless we have expanded across the Island chain to our targets. I think we should build cities as close to Wang and Qin as possible and continue ferrying troops to them until we get Astronomy and then go to war. I will look at the save tonight to further continue my ramblings.

 

[Sir Clive]

[*] Build macemen like there's no tomorrow
[*] Tech to Optics.
[*] Tech to Liberalism.
[*] Grab Astronomy

I'd definitelyagree with the maceman.

As I have improved at CIV4 (and as I said in the intro , my warmongering still leaves a lot to be desired) I have come to rely more and morte on pillaging. I used to pillage rarely - the argument being that I wanted to use the resources in the captured cities ASAP.

However since I have moved up the levels I tend to pillage more . The advantage of restricting the enemy from certain builds early in the war, restricting the rate at which they can move reinforcements in by pillaging roads, and causing the city to have to starve far outweigh the hassle of having to spend a few worker turns reconnecting everything up after capture.

Since we don't have horses for pillaging I would like to have some war elephants to send with the macemen and cannons when the time comes.
Hopefully we can then capture some horses for our UU !

 

[Sir Clive]

So, I'd do (even not looking at the save):

• Ferry a worker to our new city. It'll be faster than building one.
• Found that city on the Ivory.
• Tech to Civil Service (if we don't have it yet)
• Build macemen like there's no tomorrow
• Tech to Optics.
• Tech to Liberalism.
• Grab Astronomy

I have to say again that I haven't looked at the save, so I may be here.

For those of you who are bored but at work and can't look at the save here are a few figures and a screeny.

We don't have Civil Service yet. Here's the number of turns required to get to Optics, Cvil Service and Liberalism. Obviously these will be reduced as we grow and hopefully we will be able to make some trades. The first figure is with science at 60% (the most we can currently afford) , the second with science at 100%

• 1 Machinery 3 / 2
• 2 Optics 17 / 11

• 1 Civil Service 19 / 12

• 1 Philosophy 19 / 11
• 2 Theology 12 / 8
• 3 Paper 17 / 11
• 4 Education 50 / 31
• 5 Liberalism 39 / 24

 

[FeedBack]

Oh, thank you so much!

Do we have a GS-farm already? If not, we may start one pretty soon...

Assuming we have no GP-Points there (and I don't know if it's possible since our only food-rich city is Madrid), we'd have @ 6GPP/turn:

1st GS: 34 turns
2nd GS: 50 turns

So, assuming our current research rate we could do:

• 1 Machinery 3
• 2 Optics 17
• 3 Civil Service 14
• Lightbulb Philosophy
• 3 Civil Service 5
• 4 Paper 11
• 5 Lightbulb partially Education 50
• 6 Liberalism

Which means we'd be able to lightbulb our way 'till liberalism in the worst-case scenario (the current research rate). Insert the bureaucracy bonus in there and we'll be able to finish Education with the second GS.
So, the only thing we need NOW is a city with a library, no GP points and, at least, 3 pop. Is there one?
One more thing: would it be better for us to research CS prior to Optics for the Bureaucracy bonus?

 

[negyvenketto]

One more thing: would it be better for us to research CS prior to Optics for the Bureaucracy bonus?

I think we should go for Optics first, means Caravels and tech-trading.

 

[Sir Clive]

Oh, thank you so much!

Do we have a GS-farm already? If not, we may start one pretty soon...

Assuming we have no GP-Points there (and I don't know if it's possible since our only food-rich city is Madrid), we'd have @ 6GPP/turn:

1st GS: 34 turns
2nd GS: 50 turns

Cities with GP points in the bank are as follows

Madrid
2 sci , 1 priest,
11 GP points per turn
112/200 8 turns 70% Prophet, 29% Scientist

Havana
1 GP point per turn
16/200 184 turns 100% Prophet

Barcelona
0 GP points per turn
3/200 197 turns 100% Scientist

So nowhere that is likely to produce a Great Scientist in the foreseeable future

Note Madrid is curently stagnant at size 8 but we can grow
to size 11 without unhappiness so we might want to fire one
specialist for now as there are still some decent workable tiles.

Once we get the second fish hooked up at Tortola and have built a lighthouse we can run a couple of specialists there and still manage to grow to decent size

 

[FeedBack]

Ok, now IF we want to do this lightbulbing, we may have to try a gambit...
Fire the Priest in Madrid. If we let the other settings, Madrid would have about 50/50 chance between a Prophet and a Scientist in 11 turns.

If we fire all the specialists, it'll make a great person in 44 turns if no "automatic governor action" is taken there. It'll be a "granted" Scientist in the other city, but I think it's risky. We don't know where Mansa Musa is.

Let the RNG say what we can do.

Sir, if it's not too much to ask... Can you see the turns required to get Astronomy and the pre-req techs on our current research rate?

 

[Sir Clive]

Sir, if it's not too much to ask... Can you see the turns required to get Astronomy and the pre-req techs on our current research rate?

No problem fb. I was made redundant at the end of last year and haven't found a suitable new job yet and have also split up with my girlfirend so I have a fair bit more spare time at the moment than I used to have

We only need Machinery and Optics to get to Astronomy since we already have Calendar.

Path to Astronomy at 60% science is

1. Machinery - 3 turns
2. Optics - 17 turns
3 Astronomy - 55 turns

 

[negyvenketto]

Ok, now IF we want to do this lightbulbing, we may have to try a gambit...
Fire the Priest in Madrid. If we let the other settings, Madrid would have about 50/50 chance between a Prophet and a Scientist in 11 turns.

It's late
I've played my first 8 turns and we have a GProphet. What is the team choice?
Lightbuld Theology (long term benefit?) and found Christianity or build shrine (instant profit).
I can wait for advice 10h and play rest of my turns tommorrow morning. (If it's fine to you).

By the way, we found horsies just south of copper/stone island.

 

[FeedBack]

This is kinda different from the usual SG's... I can wonder a lot and the time at work passes by quickly. That's .

So, I need some elderly advice here.... If we jump (or trade) Civil Service anytime here, we'd have, say, an small force but we'd have a large force by doing this:

• Crossbows until Macemen are available
• Macemen until Caravels are available
• Two caravels and Macemen/Pikemen until Galleons are available
• Galleons until we are out of troops to ferry

The downside here is that we'd move all our cities, they having or not, to military jobs. Our economy won't grow. We won't be able to settle more cities (and besides the Ivory one, I don't think we should).
It's something I had never done yet. If we had horses, I'd put Conquistadores inside the galleons. But we don't. The Map Generator wished we had some challenge here.
We'd be able to invade anyone nearby. And that wouldn't be Qin or Wang. They are protective. I'd find a more suitable target.
What do you guys think about it? Am I dreaming???

 

[FeedBack]

By the way, we found horsies just south of copper/stone island.

I'll quote myself!!! :lol

If we had horses, I'd put Conquistadores inside the galleons. But we don't. The Map Generator wished we had some challenge here.

Conquistadores here we come!
Now we must research Guilds too...

About the prophet, I'd lightbulb Theology. We could use 2 more XP's on our soon-to-born numberless units.

 

[Sir Clive]

Great news on finding the horsies - thought it was strange there were none at all in the area we had uncovered !

I'd definitely go with Theology with the GP as well.

 

[negyvenketto]

Turn 140 (600 AD)
Starting settler, archer, worker for ivory city & galley for ferry

Turn 142 (640 AD)
Tech learned: Machinery, started optics
Confucian Missionary failed in Panama city

Turn 143 (660 AD)
The horse island

Starting settler, archer for horse city, call back a galley to ferry

Turn 146 (720 AD)
Taoism FIADL

Turn 147 (740 AD)
Ananda (Great Prophet) born in Madrid

Turn 148 (760 AD)
Tech learned: Theology
Christianity founded in Tortola

Turn 149 (780 AD)
Tortola: worker -> Work Boat

Turn 151 (820 AD)
We are far from being wealthy

I hate these demands , I gave it to him to keep happy.

Turn 155 (900 AD)
Ivory Coast founded

I started a Work Boat in Panama City for the fish, but first we need a border expansion to use it. Missionary heading south to give religion and a worker should be transfered, too (and something to fog-bust south).

Optics in next turn! We should build at least 2 Caravels.

Spoiler :

Turn 140/460 (600 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:14:25]
Panama City begins: Galley (17 turns)
Tortola begins: Worker (9 turns)
Porkopolis begins: Archer (5 turns)
Panama City begins: Settler (17 turns)
Barcelona begins: Harbor (13 turns)
Madrid finishes: Confucian Missionary
Havana grows: 4
Havana finishes: Barracks
Porkopolis finishes: Granary

IBT:

Turn 141/460 (620 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:29:17]
Madrid begins: Archer (9 turns)
A Hamlet was built near Barcelona
Porkopolis finishes: Archer

IBT:

Turn 142/460 (640 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:32:42]
Porkopolis begins: Worker (7 turns)
Tech learned: Machinery

IBT:

Turn 143/460 (660 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:37:20]
A Plantation was built
Havana finishes: Harbor
Barcelona grows: 6

IBT:

Turn 144/460 (680 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:38:42]
Havana begins: Settler (10 turns)

IBT:

Turn 145/460 (700 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:41:11]

IBT:

Turn 146/460 (720 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:42:03]
A Plantation was built near Madrid
Havana's borders expand
Barcelona finishes: Galley

IBT:
Taoism founded in a distant land

Turn 147/460 (740 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:45:21]
A Mine was built near Panama City
Ananda (Prophet) (Great Prophet) born in Madrid
Barcelona's borders expand
Porkopolis finishes: Worker

IBT:

Turn 148/460 (760 AD) [19-Mar-2007 19:48:19]
Porkopolis begins: Archer (5 turns)


Turn 148/460 (760 AD) [20-Mar-2007 06:57:32]
A Cottage was built near Barcelona
Tech learned: Theology
Christianity founded in Tortola
Christianity has spread: Tortola
A Hamlet was built near Madrid
A Hamlet was built near Panama City
Porkopolis grows: 4
Tortola finishes: Worker

IBT:

Turn 149/460 (780 AD) [20-Mar-2007 07:00:02]
Tortola begins: Work Boat (15 turns)
Madrid finishes: Archer
Barcelona grows: 6

IBT:
Civics Change: Wang Kon(Korea) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'
Civics Change: Wang Kon(Korea) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 150/460 (800 AD) [20-Mar-2007 07:02:43]
Madrid begins: Trireme (17 turns)
A Cottage was built near Porkopolis
Havana finishes: Settler

IBT:

Turn 151/460 (820 AD) [20-Mar-2007 07:08:22]
Havana begins: Confucian Missionary (5 turns)
A Cottage was built near Barcelona
Barcelona finishes: Harbor
Panama City finishes: Settler
Porkopolis finishes: Archer

IBT:

Turn 152/460 (840 AD) [20-Mar-2007 07:11:21]
Barcelona begins: Barracks (9 turns)
Panama City begins: Barracks (13 turns)
Porkopolis begins: Harbor (7 turns)
A Mine was built near Tortola
Havana grows: 4

IBT:

Turn 153/460 (860 AD) [20-Mar-2007 07:15:46]
Havana finishes: Confucian Missionary
Porkopolis grows: 5
A Hamlet was built near Porkopolis
Tortola grows: 2

IBT:
Civics Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'
Civics Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 154/460 (880 AD) [20-Mar-2007 07:17:48]
Havana begins: Confucian Missionary (5 turns)
A Cottage was built near Havana
Panama City begins: Work Boat (8 turns)
Madrid grows: 9
Panama City grows: 4

IBT:

Turn 155/460 (900 AD) [20-Mar-2007 07:19:57]
Ivory Coast founded
Ivory Coast begins: Harbor (14 turns)
A Cottage was built near Panama City

The save

 

[Sir Clive]

Nice turns !

Seeing as neither Qin or Wang even have compass yet and we are 1 away from optics I imagine we should be safe for the circumnavigation bonus at this level if we build 2 caravels straight away? I normally go for this as a matter of course on anything other than pangaea and the extra momvement would be very useful on this map.

Not much time to look at the save just now but will post some thoughts later

belintani - On deck
The Sansman -
Sir Clive -
Sirloin -
negyvenketto - Just played
Bede - Up

 

[FeedBack]

Some quick notes:

1- Optics was going to take 17 turns to research. It actually took 14. Good, good!
2- Qin has Feudalism. Protective longbows. Positively now he is target for us.
3- Taoism has just been founded. We are not THAT behind on techs besides our semi-isolated start.
4- Ivory Coast has just been founded. As Negy stated, we need a border pop there ASAP. So, I think we should either change the harbor (it doesn't need health or trade route bonus now IMHO) to a library (maybe) or send a missionary there. Havana is acting like a Missionary factory. I'll leave the choice to the venerable.

Negy was busy with civilian buildings and started barracks on a few cities!
Now we have to start that army we were talking about. I presume, after Optics, we need Civil Service.

 

[Bede]

With horses and elephants and catapults/trebuchets we are definitely good to go. Rather than Civil Service I should think Engineering. Longbows on hill even without Protective trait will eat maces, even supported by seige. They are not so strong against War Elephants supported by seige. Cover the force with pikes and axes and they will cry uncle.

The only thing the isolated start has cost us is an early war. We are doing just fine in techs.

Got it.

 

[negyvenketto]

4- Ivory Coast has just been founded. As Negy stated, we need a border pop there ASAP. So, I think we should either change the harbor (it doesn't need health or trade route bonus now IMHO) to a library (maybe) or send a missionary there.

As I wrote a missionary heading south to spread religion, library takes too long to build. Anyway, feel free to change build orders.

After Optics, I agree with Engineering (war elephants, catapults).

I think crossbows are better counter of melee than axes.

Should we keep cities, which we capture eventually? I think just decent ones, since our economy is not so strong. Some pillaging won't hurt

Good luck Brother Bede

 

[The Sansman]

I agree that War Elephants and Catapults are the way to go at the moment, so we should get Engineering after Optics. I also agree with negyvenketto that Crossbows are a better unit to have against Melee units. And like negyvenketto said our economy needs some strengthen before we go and slaughter Wang. I think Wang should go down first since he seems closer than Qin. But we need to scout as much of his territory as possible as we build an army and position it closer to him. Hopefully he is having as much trouble find decent resources as we are.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

lurker's comment: I'm not a careful reader, so forgive a potentially redundant question. Where's the FP going?

@venerable master, screenies of the tech tree and tech trades, por favor?

Keep in mind the cultural and economic benefits of castles on prince.

and BTW, who built the Glighthouse?

This map rocks.

EDIT: and BTW, maybe more like 4 caravels so you don't have to give into demands; just a thought

 

[FeedBack]

Oh man... No maths to do... No reports to read... No screenies to look at... This day is lasting too much...
I think I'll just grab another . At least, it's free.

No pressure at all, but...
play!