Colonialist Legacies' Tlingit for VP

[pineappledan]

You could just remove the mod trigger

 

[dpr3113]

I just played through a game as the Tlingit, and thought I’d share my impressions:

Patch: 3.8.4
Difficulty: Immortal
Map: Continents
Result: Culture victory
My skill level: I can win on immortal (and did this time), but don’t find it easy

Overall game history:
Started on a weird ring shaped extrusion from a larger continent and managed to settle the key chokepoints and then the rest of the ring, totaling 10 cities. Not great terrain - few sea resources, mostly
Tundra, and quite a bit of it unforested - but picked up Stonehenge + Gods of the Stars and Sky and got a religion.

One of my cities was marvelous for the UA, with 6 Noow/4 fishing boats, and I ran all internal trade routes out of it.

Attacked a weak neighbor in the early Renaissance in concert with another civ and took their capital/vassalized them.

Social policies were Authority -> Fealty -> Industry -> Order.

Won a culture victory via working the new Propaganda process courtesy of Order + rushing Alternative Energy plants (I had nuclear energy before I discovered oil) for a more efficient process conversion, hitting about 3k tourism/turn.

Overall thoughts:

The civ is strong, and feels good to play, but almost all of the power budget seems bound up in the UA. The Keex is good, but not a game changer, and the Duk was underwhelming, even if it was useful early. The Noow is good but most of its power is bound up in how it ties into the UA, and the Hit likewise.

I think this is fine - after all, if the civ is sort of “one strength”, it’s at least a very flexible strength and could play a key part in almost any strategy.

That said, I think I’d enjoy the Tlingit more - and it would have more replayability - if the UA was nerfed a bit and the civ got some more power somewhere else. Maybe replacing the 4UC Duk/Hit?

Overall, I liked the civ a lot, and I’m very grateful to @pineappledan for maintaining the mod!

 

[Valliand]

I also like this civ alot, but it would be great if the ai could be taught to not built Duks when they are not needed. In the late game his entire navy consists of freekill Duks

Spoiler Example :

 

[pineappledan]

I'm considering a redesign for this civ.

Spoiler UA stuff :

Current UA:

• +100% Culture, and Science from International trade routes.
• Internal Trade Routes provide the Target City with 2 Food for each Fishing Boat, and 2 Production for each Noow worked by the Origin City every turn, Scaling with Era.

New UA:

• Gain 10% of All Yields per turn for your best city for each yield type in all of your other cities.

Notes:
"All Yields" is defined as . Yields for ,, and BGPs are not calculated/distributed.
The "best city" for each yield is determined on an individual basis, so your highest -producing city might be different from your highest -producing city
Example:

• The city with the most Food per turn is generating 100 each turn, so all other cities get +10 every turn
• The city with the most GPT is generating 50 each turn, so all other cities get +5 every turn

The "best city", for each amount would be calculated based on the cities yields per turn BEFORE the UA bonus is applied.
This UA would be directly aimed at rewarding players for specializing cities, minmaxing to pump a single yield type, and then distributing that yield to all the other cities in your empire. Each additional city you own would effectively increase your global yields by 10% of your best cities' yield output.

In order to support this playstyle, the Noow would also need to change, since it's heavily build around supporting the current UA.

Spoiler UI stuff :

Old UI:
Noow - UI

Unlocked at Engineering​

Can be built on any tile with access to Water (coast, river, etc.), not on a resource, and not adjacent to each other​

10% defense​

+1, +1, +1, +1​

+1 for every adjacent Forest/Jungle tile​

Units on a Noow Receive the 'Survival March' promotion​

+1, +1 at Machinery​

+1, +1 at Navigation​

+1, +1 at Combustion​

New UI:
Noow - UI

Unlocked at Engineering​

Can be built on any tile with access to Water (coast, river, etc.), not on a resource, and not adjacent to each other​

10% defense​

+1, +1, +1 +1, +1​

+1 for each adjacent Forest​

+1 for each adjacent Jungle​

+1 for each adjacent Marsh​

+1 for each adjacent Mountain​

+1 for each adjacent Oasis and Atoll​

Units on a Noow Receive the 'Survival March' promotion​

+1, +1 at Machinery​

+1, +1 at Navigation​

+1 at Combustion​

So that's a lot more complicated. a bit harder to plan out, but it gives the UI a vector to specialize cities based on their surrounding terrain.
Obviously science spcialization is the rarest yield specialization. That's in line with how rare is on terrain in general.

 

[Rosete]

I like the concept, but I think is new UA would make cities less specialized and more "samey". VP right is such that you'd build every building available, resulting in most cities having very similar yields. This UA may make this "sameyness" more pronounced. For example:

City A: 100 101
City B: 101 100
Without changing anything in my play pattern, B would be consider my best city and A my best city. I wouldn't need to think about the UA much at all. It is a passive stat stick that pads all my yields.

With how rare / is, this "specialized" city may end up being your capital by default.

I don't think this UA will make me want to do any more min maxing than just plop specialists accordingly to gain the buffs. The current UA is also a stat stick, but at least it forces me to make a trade-off between international vs internal. The new UA would give me everything, every time.

 

[pineappledan]

That's why I want the UI to support the emphasis by specializing cities based on the features in the surrounding terrain. That should hopefully mean you specialize cities by specialists, building priority, and by settling in certain areas. You can also do certain things like piling all your GPTIs of 1 type around 1 city.

w.r.t. the current UA, I think it plays too much like the Ottomans. Civs with trade route bonuses are pretty common. Looking at all the 14 custom civs I've added, 6 of them have a TR mechanic. There would still be the bonuses on the UB from extra components which empowers ITRs more than normal, but I think I have gone overboard.

Edit: oh, also internal and external TRs exist, and would factor into these yield calculations, so that would be another parameter players could manipulate to pump up a few cities for // in the best city.

 

[Tekamthi]

It's an interesting change gameplay-wise, though it strikes me that the existing ua has greater thematic alignment than what's been proposed.

Tlingit were a very trade focused people, historically. The TR related ua, buffing a few water-related plots as well, fits very well in this sense.

On the other hand the "best city" approach does not seem to represent any historical characteristic of these people, seems to be more about making a distinct gameplay functionality for distinctness sake. Perhaps the other features of this civ are sufficient to draw out the historical connection, would have to give it a test drive to get a sense of how it feels in-game

 

[pineappledan]

the existing ua has greater thematic alignment than what's been proposed.

I think I disagree. I think we need to be mindful that all of the components combined need to combine to give a sense of the culture they portray collectively, and it is not the sole purpose of the UA to encapsulate that.

The UU1 emphasizes the PNW military traditions of wooden armor and coastal raiding
The UI portrays their decentralized political systems, such as the various moieties and clands. It also draws heavily from the Battle of Sitka for the defensive combat bonus and promotion
The inland trade of like the grease trails and the internal trading are portrayed by the Plankhouse UB in 4UC (gold along rivers and extra production from ITRs)
The focus on fishing and shipbuilding is portrayed by the War Canoe (Duk) UU2 from 4UC (fishing boats that don't expend the unit, ranged, inland attacks)

The UA is called, Ku'Eex, which is the Tlingit term for a Potlatch. The potlatch was the central instrument of trade and commerce within the PNW. Rather than contracts, state monopolies on certain commodities, and trade agreements, the people of the PNW distributed goods through lavish gift-giving festivals. The act of giving away or destroying wealth was a demonstration of political power, and central to the political, cultural, and economic life of powerful clans.

You can see how this is portrayed in the "best city" mechanic. The wealth in yields by a powerful city leader are distributed to the rest of the cities as a gamification of the potlatch economic system.
I actually think the current UA does a worse job of feeling like a potlatch. Instead I think it commits a bit of cultural essentialism by tying Tlingit culture to fish, and decenters the people's genuine cultural and political innovations.

 

[pineappledan]

With how rare / is, this "specialized" city may end up being your capital by default.

I think there is certainly a danger with Tradition that you could just use the +10% to All Yields in the capital that is given by the finisher to effectively just turn that into +10% to All Yields on Empire. That's not very interesting. It would require some testing to determine if planned city specialization with a few good cities could outperform the yield outputs of a single, powerful capital, which can simply outperform all cities on empire in every category.

If it is the case that a Tradition capital can play this bonus optimally by simply being a regular large tradition capital then I agree that it's not a very interesting UA at all.

 

[Hinin]

I think there is certainly a danger with Tradition that you could just use the +10% to All Yields in the capital that is given by the finisher to effectively just turn that into +10% to All Yields on Empire. That's not very interesting. It would require some testing to determine if planned city specialization with a few good cities could outperform the yield outputs of a single, powerful capital, which can simply outperform all cities on empire in every category.

If it is the case that a Tradition capital can play this bonus optimally by simply being a regular large tradition capital then I agree that it's not a very interesting UA at all.

Perhaps we could use equivalents to national wonders for each yield, with each building preventing others to be built in the same city ?

This would prevent the theme of the UA, city specialization, to be lost because of Tradition gameplay, and would also allow you to go even further in that direction by providing some kind of happiness bonus to counter the inevitable problems that will arise within the current happiness system of VP with that idea. Put a minimal maintenance cost, and it becomes possible to relocate the buildings.

Another system could be to assign the buildings at the start of each era : one era after the start of the game, a lua function would determine the highest yield in each city and compare them, and then distribute the buildings based on that, with a limit of one building per city. This system would have the advantage of being flexible throughout time and being more AI friendly, but would be difficult to code.

An intermediate approach would be to go in the direction of requiring manual construction, but deleting all these buildings automatically at the start of each era with a notification signaling the thing to the player. With minimal construction costs and heavy flavors, the AI should be able to handle the system.

 

[Tekamthi]

You can see how this is portrayed in the "best city" mechanic. The wealth in yields by a powerful city leader are distributed to the rest of the cities as a gamification of the potlatch economic system.
I actually think the current UA does a worse job of feeling like a potlatch. Instead I think it commits a bit of cultural essentialism by tying Tlingit culture to fish, and decenters the people's genuine cultural and political innovations.

This is well reasoned, but maybe a "miss the forest for the trees" type situation. The old UA broadly aligns the style of play, focused on trade routes, with one prominent aspect of their historical identity. I suspect the proposed change may render their overall gameplay style somewhat more generic, and/or shifted towards really focusing on 1-super city. This kind of gameplay focus feels misaligned with their historical character. Just the gut feeling I get from comparing both side-by-side, and having played a few times with the old one. Worth a try though, can only get a true sense of the subtleties of how they play by actually getting these ideas in-game. I'll give it a shot.

Maybe you could add some depth to your representation of the potlatch by tying the bonuses to GP births/expenditures and/or population growth -- afaik the ceremonies around births/deaths were much more extravagant than the more routine, seasonal ones.

 

[pineappledan]

Maybe you could add some depth to your representation of the potlatch by tying the bonuses to GP births/expenditures and/or population growth -- afaik the ceremonies around births/deaths were much more extravagant than the more routine, seasonal ones.

That's an interesting idea.

Ku'Eex
+100% Culture, and Science from International trade routes.
Whenever a Citizen is born, 50% of All Yields generated in that city are given to all Other Cities on empire.

I think the problem with that is now the only clear incentive is to grow. There is no incentive to specialize cities.

 

[Tekamthi]

That's an interesting idea.

Ku'Eex
+100% Culture, and Science from International trade routes.
Whenever a Citizen is born, 50% of All Yields generated in that city are given to all Other Cities on empire.

I think the problem with that is now the only clear incentive is to grow. There is no incentive to specialize cities.

Okay, good point. I think we might merge this with your original idea of +x% yields per turn from the best city. I'm generally in agreement with the dropping of the trade route bonus as you outlined on the basis of making this ua feel very distinct, while thematic in other ways; maybe some tr bonus could be retained as long as it were significantly different from any other, and fit within the cultural/thematic vibe -- broadly speaking this is my favorite aspect of your new proposal.

so i might suggest something like:

• 5% of your original best city yields idea in other cities
• 20% of yields bonus to other cities when a city grows OR when great person born
• trade route gives +5% bonus of origin city's best yield to destination city

My % are just off the top here, completely meant to be tweaked for balance and gameplay effect; and maybe this is too many moving parts to nail down the balance properly; I'm also not sure how distinct my suggestions are from other ua features, as I have a terrible memory for the intricacies of every one of the 43 -- but having these multiple pieces, or some similarly structured bonuses, would maybe open up the playstyle from JUST super city focus to some more flexible styles while still capturing the potlatch theme. Having tr provide bonus to destination city, though not extensively theorycrafted on my part for gameplay viability (just brainstorming here), strikes me as a nice way of representing the giving-away of wealth that was perhaps the distinguishing feature of the potlatch to outsiders... Creates added dilemma to player of value between internal and international tr, and some secondary gameplay objectives of trying to curry favor with this civ as their neighbor, to be the recipient of their trade

I am not an expert by any means on the custom of the Tlingit nor the other proximate groups out west, but from what I understand of the potlatch culture, some of the ceremonies in particular, there was a significant consumption of wealth along with the giving away of it -- what we've discussed so far seems to be just an abstraction of the sharing of wealth, ie free bonuses without any cost. Not sure how to go about it but working that other dynamic into the mix might truly give this civ both a distinct and thematically aligned orientation

 

[Diomedes_]

I quite liked the first iteration of the reworked UA. The culture and science from ITRs is a very cool bonus but from my understanding of history (and reading about the Potlatch) seems like it could work for a bunch of different Native American civs, while the new one you proposed seems very unique and specific to the Tlingit.

However, I do think others' reservations about the UA and UI changes not necessarily pointing this build of the civ towards a true city-specialization playstyle are founded. One easy way to prevent a capital-centric playstyle from dominating would be changing to new Noow yields. The new Noow would look like this:

Noow - UI
Unlocked at Engineering
Can be built on any tile with access to Water (coast, river, etc.), not on a resource, and not adjacent to each other. Does not remove features.
10% defense
+1, +1, +1
+4 when built on Featureless Plains
+4 when built on Floodplains or Featureless Grassland
+4 when built on Featureless Desert or Tundra
+2 when built in Forest
+2 when built in Jungle
+2 when built on Marsh
Units on a Noow Receive the 'Survival March' promotion
+2/1 to terrain-specific yields at Machinery
+2/1 to terrain-specific yields at Navigation
+2/1 to terrain-specific yields at Combustion

Agacency bonuses are quite luck-based in my experience and would hamper the UI's ability to tailor certain cities to certain yields to facilitate maximizing the UA. I also added a way for the UI to generate Faith as the UA works with that resource as well. Putting the three best yields on the three terrain types (forest, jungle, and marsh) that one has the least control over would be a good way to avoid crazy yields at first. For the other yields, I tried to put them with the terrain that would already facilitate high levels of those yields (plains has pasture resources and base production, grassland has rice and maize with base food, desert has oases and plantation resources, forest gets culture from Zoo, jungle gets science from University, marsh doesn't get faith normally but it seemed fitting). The initial proposal had the Noow being a 11 yield improvement when fully upgraded and with 1 adjacent terrain with a maximum of a 16 yield building with 6 adjacent (which was only practical for the Food/Prod/Gold yields), while my idea has the Noow at a 13 yield improvement when fully upgraded for Food/Prod/Gold and an 8 yield building for Science/Culture/Faith. However, of those yields, a much larger proportion are the terrain-specific ones (77% for Food/Prod/Gold and 63% for Science/Culture/Faith) than for the older Noow (minimum 9%, maximum 44%), which I think will help make the UA much more compelling as a facilitator of city specialization.

 

[Anarcomu]

@Diomedes_ you should specify that the boni on Plains/Grassland/Desert only works on featureless tiles. Also there is no bonus for featureless tundra.

 

[Diomedes_]

@Diomedes_ you should specify that the boni on Plains/Grassland/Desert only works on featureless tiles. Also there is no bonus for featureless tundra.

Good catch, I also added Floodplains as a possible condition for the Food yield

 

[Guynemer]

I believe the recent change to VP has rendered this civ incompatible, alas.

 

[dostillevi]

I believe the recent change to VP has rendered this civ incompatible, alas.

Any idea what exactly broke? I like this civ quite a bit and would love to see it restored!

 

[H0dgvikin]

I believe the recent change to VP has rendered this civ incompatible, alas.

I don't think anything really broke the civ-the problem is that the mod references the VP promotion tree, which is currently removed due to minor bugs. If I go into the mod's folder into the modinfo file and remove the following line:


<Mod id="1f0a153b-26ae-4496-a2c0-a106d9b43c95" minversion="0" maxversion="999" title="(7b) UI - Promotion Tree for VP" />

It seems to load for me.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

The Duk seems to be bugged, i cannot build improvements with it

Spoiler :