Common Errors and/or Crashes Section

[strategyonly]

Not sure if a common error, but after updating to 15.1 and tried to load a previous version save, Civ4BeyondSword.exe returned me a runtime error forcing app to stop running. Afterwards, everytime I run the C2C mod, although successfully loaded, text on menu, submenu and ingame options is missing. Error, bug, glitch or simply a XML mess?

Best thing i can say right now is try 16.0 Better yet wait till the end of the week and i'll see if i can get a 16.1 done, hows that?

I personally think 16.1 is 50% better than 15.1, hows that.

 

[BlueGenie]

I have a question that might fit in this topic:
Are there any plans to at least attempt to make C2C multiplayer capable, even if it's just an option in Custom Game that removes known MP Sync problem things?

 

[Koshling]

I have a question that might fit in this topic:
Are there any plans to at least attempt to make C2C multiplayer capable, even if it's just an option in Custom Game that removes known MP Sync problem things?

To be totally candid, no explicit plans, though obviously it would be a good thing. What it needs is someone with that focus, and basic (programming) modding skills, to join the modding team really.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I've taken a look at this, and your assumption was correct that it was the way building %food stacks (its addative as a percentage), and you have a total of 96% in Rome! This comes from:

Modern granary: 50
Granary: 30
Warehouse: 10
Shanty Town: 2
Commons: 2
Cottages: 1
Shacks: 1

I think a couple of changes are in order:

1) Modern granary should replace granary, not coexists and stack with it

2) These percentages should be addative but multiplicative (so 50% reduction then another 50% reduction is a total of 75% of the original)

Not hard changes to make, but I'll leave a few hours for comment before I try to do anything on these...

I thought the Modern Granary did already. I thought it went ...

Storage Pit -> Granary -> Modern Granary

I will have to check in game to see. Very weird if it is.

Also don't forget that other buildings can store food like the Ice House (obsolete at Refrigeration).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I thought the Modern Granary did already. I thought it went ...

Storage Pit -> Granary -> Modern Granary

I will have to check in game to see. Very weird if it is.

Also don't forget that other buildings can store food like the Ice House (obsolete at Refrigeration).

IIRC there are so many complaints in RoM and AND that having modern granary replace granary meant that a whole line of buildings were not able to be built that the upgrade was removed. That was before we had the OR ability for prerq buildings so it mat have been fixed that way instead.

 

[Koshling]

IIRC there are so many complaints in RoM and AND that having modern granary replace granary meant that a whole line of buildings were not able to be built that the upgrade was removed. That was before we had the OR ability for prerq buildings so it mat have been fixed that way instead.

It won't really matter once I change it to be multiplicative instead of addative anyway, so assumig everyone is ok with that change we can leave the XML alone...?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well I looked it up and they do upgrade from Storage Pit to Granary to Modern Granary.

It has been this way for a long time so I am not sure how you possibly had a Granary and Modern Granary at the same time.

 

[EldrinFal]

I've taken a look at this, and your assumption was correct that it was the way building %food stacks (its addative as a percentage), and you have a total of 96% in Rome! This comes from:

Modern granary: 50
Granary: 30
Warehouse: 10
Shanty Town: 2
Commons: 2
Cottages: 1
Shacks: 1

I think a couple of changes are in order:

1) Modern granary should replace granary, not coexists and stack with it

2) These percentages should be addative but multiplicative (so 50% reduction then another 50% reduction is a total of 75% of the original)

Not hard changes to make, but I'll leave a few hours for comment before I try to do anything on these...

I thought the Modern Granary did already. I thought it went ...

Storage Pit -> Granary -> Modern Granary

That is what SHOULD be happening, but apparently not. Maybe the % storage function is lingering? Or it's just the buildings aren't being replaced..

I will have to check in game to see. Very weird if it is.

Also don't forget that other buildings can store food like the Ice House (obsolete at Refrigeration).

I think Koshling listed all the factors in my particular city that were storing food. But regardless, I don't think there should EVER be a situation where you get 95% or more storage in a city (maybe that comes out to even MORE with the Civic and Building reductions of "Food Required for Cities to Grow"!)

Another idea to throw in the ring: What if storage wasn't % but a set number? That way over time it provides diminishing returns, forcing the need for upgrading / new storage buildings? Is that at all feasible?

 

[Hydromancerx]

As far As I can tell the Food % are as follows ...

- Granaries (Storage Pit 10% | Granary 30% | Modern Granary 50%)
- Housing (LDLW 1% | LDMW 1% | LDHW 1% | MDLW 2% | MDMW 2% | MDHW 2% | HDLW 3% | HDMW 3% | HDHW 3% | SDLW 4% | SDMW 4% | SDHW 5% | Launch Arcology 40% | Colony Arcology 50%)
- Icehouse 10%
- Warehouse 10%
- Strategic Grain Reserve 20%

Let me know if I missed any.

It won't really matter once I change it to be multiplicative instead of addative anyway, so assumig everyone is ok with that change we can leave the XML alone...?

Make sure that replaced buildings get their food % replaced if the building replaces them. Ex. Storage Pit to Granary makes 30% not 40%.

EDIT: Perhaps with all the additional buildings the Granary should be changed to 20% and the Modern Granary to 30%

This would be around modern era you would have ...

30% + 10% + 20% + 18 = 78% food storage

And at max you would have ...

30% + 10% + 20% + 50% = 110% in the Galactic Era.

 

[Koshling]

Sure, here y'ar. End of turn, slinger at hill of akkad will probably attack. The great commander has 16 exp. The tomahawk thrower will definitely kill the slinger if it attacks. Next turn, attack akkad with the tomahawks. Every time a tomahawk attacks, it should reduce the commander's cp by 1. A kill should increase its exp by 1. However, neither numbers change.

Just pushed a fix to SVN, which should sort this out. It was a screw up in the bug fix I made the other day to solve SO's crash when the Great Commander got killed while still in use.

 

[EldrinFal]

As far As I can tell the Food % are as follows ...

- Granaries (Storage Pit 10% | Granary 30% | Modern Granary 50%)
- Housing (LDLW 1% | LDMW 1% | LDHW 1% | MDLW 2% | MDMW 2% | MDHW 2% | HDLW 3% | HDMW 3% | HDHW 3% | SDLW 4% | SDMW 4% | SDHW 5% | Launch Arcology 40% | Colony Arcology 50%)
- Icehouse 10%
- Warehouse 10%
- Strategic Grain Reserve 20%

Let me know if I missed any.



Make sure that replaced buildings get their food % replaced if the building replaces them. Ex. Storage Pit to Granary makes 30% not 40%.

EDIT: Perhaps with all the additional buildings the Granary should be changed to 20% and the Modern Granary to 30%

This would be around modern era you would have ...

30% + 10% + 20% + 18 = 78% food storage

And at max you would have ...

30% + 10% + 20% + 50% = 110% in the Galactic Era.

At 110%, you're Food Banks are making interest. So not only does the city get +1 pop each turn, but it gains an additional 10% food on top of that. Is that intended?

 

[Koshling]

At 110%, you're Food Banks are making interest. So not only does the city get +1 pop each turn, but it gains an additional 10% food on top of that. Is that intended?

No need to change them yet. Going to multiplicative is a much better solution because it makes design decisions about indiviudal buildings independent. If we leave it addative it means you ALWAYS have to consider EVERY possible contributor in making design decisions (includng those from optional modules you may not even know you are going to add yet!), otherwise you can never be sure you won't approach or exceed 100%.

I will also look into why modern granary is not replacing the regular granary however.

Edit - the reason the granary is not being replaced is because it is not a 'real building' in the city. It's a free building given by the strategic grain reserve. The code doesn't cope with free buildings being replaced. I can fix this, but if I do it in the naive way (and doing it to avoid this will be quite hard) the consequence will be that it's gone for good in that city (so even if the modern granary got destroyed, the old style granary wouldn't magically re-appear just because you had a wonder that provides it for free). Only the city changing hands would cause re-evaluation of all the free stuff. This **MAY** be ok (it sorta makes sense in a real world model manner, since one imagines the old granary was bulldozed when the new one was built). However, its something I'd like feedback on. Making it work so that the free building gets replaced, yet still re-appears if the replacement gets destroyed is obviously also possible, but it's much harder to do.

For now I'm going to go ahead with my recommendation to make all the numbers multiplicative anyway, which reduces the significance of the granary stacking with modern granary, so we can defer changes for free building replacement (which way we decide to do it) until later.

 

[Hydromancerx]

No need to change them yet. Going to multiplicative is a much better solution because it makes design decisions about indiviudal buildings independent. If we leave it addative it means you ALWAYS have to consider EVERY possible contributor in making design decisions (includng those from optional modules you may not even know you are going to add yet!), otherwise you can never be sure you won't approach or exceed 100%.

I will also look into why modern granary is not replacing the regular granary however.

Edit - the reason the granary is not being replaced is because it is not a 'real building' in the city. It's a free building given by the strategic grain reserve. The code doesn't cope with free buildings being replaced. I can fix this, but if I do it in the naive way (and doing it to avoid this will be quite hard) the consequence will be that it's gone for good in that city (so even if the modern granary got destroyed, the old style granary wouldn't magically re-appear just because you had a wonder that provides it for free). Only the city changing hands would cause re-evaluation of all the free stuff. This **MAY** be ok (it sorta makes sense in a real world model manner, since one imagines the old granary was bulldozed when the new one was built). However, its something I'd like feedback on. Making it work so that the free building gets replaced, yet still re-appears if the replacement gets destroyed is obviously also possible, but it's much harder to do.

For now I'm going to go ahead with my recommendation to make all the numbers multiplicative anyway, which reduces the significance of the granary stacking with modern granary, so we can defer changes for free building replacement (which way we decide to do it) until later.

Ah ha! So that's where the problem is. I think the Strategic Grain reserve should be changed then not to give a free granary but some other bonus and/or building.

Also when you say "multiplicative" what do you mean?

Like 50% x 10% = 5% ? In which why would anyone want to have a 10% building with a 50% building if its just going to reduce your food amount from 50% to 5%?

Or is it like 50% and 10% where 50% overrides the 10%. Thus using the larger %?

Personally I think we should just reduce the folllowing ...

- Storage Pit from 10% to 5%
- Granary from 30% to 10%
- Modern Granary from 50% to 20%
- Launch Arcology from 40% to 20%
- Colony Arcology from 50% to 25%
- Icehouse from 10% to 5%
- Warehouse from 10% to 5%
- Strategic Grain Reserve can leave at 20% but take out the free granary part.

Thus at max it would leave us at ...

20% + 25% + 5% +20% = 70% Which seems a lot better.

In short Koshling please leave it at additive. Just as long as the % get replaced by the replacing buildings or if the building goes obsolete.

 

[Grunthex]

Two issues here.

Firstly, the same as Eldrin's with the way building modifiers to food kept on growth stack. The civic food percentage modifiers stack addatively and (IMO) they should stack multiplicatively. Easy change - will do it after allowing a while for comments.

Secondly, your starting state is anomolous and already buggy - BEFORE the pre save you already have -65% food required even though with the civis in force you SHOULD have +35%! There's really no way to tell where this discrepency arose I'm afraid, but my best guess is that you've run this game across several civic asset changes as you went through various SVN versions. If that ever removed a civic you were running (or an entire civic category) that provided some food-required reduction, the removal of the civic would effectively 'lock in' the benefit it was providing and could lead to this state.

For the record, there were no mid-game SVN changes, a single game run under rev499. I try not to change mid-game unless I have a really good game going. But I'll keep an eye on food required after ALL civic changes in this next game and see if I can pinpoint it more (might save the need for those correction routines you don't wanna add).

 

[strategyonly]

Ah ha! So that's where the problem is. I think the Strategic Grain reserve should be changed then not to give a free granary but some other bonus and/or building.

- Strategic Grain Reserve can leave at 20% but take out the free granary part.

But isn't the main part of this being a Wonder then is that it does provide a granary in EACH city? Or do you think it should just be a regular building then with a 20% reserve for food?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No need to change them yet. Going to multiplicative is a much better solution because it makes design decisions about indiviudal buildings independent. If we leave it addative it means you ALWAYS have to consider EVERY possible contributor in making design decisions (includng those from optional modules you may not even know you are going to add yet!), otherwise you can never be sure you won't approach or exceed 100%.

I will also look into why modern granary is not replacing the regular granary however.

Edit - the reason the granary is not being replaced is because it is not a 'real building' in the city. It's a free building given by the strategic grain reserve. The code doesn't cope with free buildings being replaced. I can fix this, but if I do it in the naive way (and doing it to avoid this will be quite hard) the consequence will be that it's gone for good in that city (so even if the modern granary got destroyed, the old style granary wouldn't magically re-appear just because you had a wonder that provides it for free). Only the city changing hands would cause re-evaluation of all the free stuff. This **MAY** be ok (it sorta makes sense in a real world model manner, since one imagines the old granary was bulldozed when the new one was built). However, its something I'd like feedback on. Making it work so that the free building gets replaced, yet still re-appears if the replacement gets destroyed is obviously also possible, but it's much harder to do.

For now I'm going to go ahead with my recommendation to make all the numbers multiplicative anyway, which reduces the significance of the granary stacking with modern granary, so we can defer changes for free building replacement (which way we decide to do it) until later.

Does this happen with all the different free buildings? The Egypt Myth one that provides free scribe building, the national Library Service that gives free libraries and so on.

There is a bunch of these that are designed to give you basic infrastructure in any new city you build by having gone to the expense of building the wonder or national wonder in the first place.

 

[Hydromancerx]

But isn't the main part of this being a Wonder then is that it does provide a granary in EACH city? Or do you think it should just be a regular building then with a 20% reserve for food?

So I changed it on the SVN it is the same as before exept I removed Free Granary in every city for the Strategic Grain Reserve.

It still has 20% food storage is which is a big thing considering all the other food storage buildings were reduced. Also it gives other things like +1 in all cities and +1 for corn, rice and wheat. I mean it is a national wonder after all so its not as spectacular as a Great Wonder. Its still worth building I think just for the +1 in every city.

If you want I could always make a new building that is free to every city that gives like 5% food storage to every city and can only be built by the Strategic Grain Reserve.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So I changed it on the SVN it is the same as before exept I removed Free Granary in every city for the Strategic Grain Reserve.

It still has 20% food storage is which is a big thing considering all the other food storage buildings were reduced. Also it gives other things like +1 in all cities and +1 for corn, rice and wheat. I mean it is a national wonder after all so its not as spectacular as a Great Wonder. Its still worth building I think just for the +1 in every city.

If you want I could always make a new building that is free to every city that gives like 5% food storage to every city and can only be built by the Strategic Grain Reserve.

I am exceedingly angry at this point - I think I should stop typing, go out and have a coffee someplace nice.

 

[strategyonly]

Does this happen with all the different free buildings? The Egypt Myth one that provides free scribe building, the national Library Service that gives free libraries and so on.

There is a bunch of these that are designed to give you basic infrastructure in any new city you build by having gone to the expense of building the wonder or national wonder in the first place.

That was my main point above why i was asking what i did, because if this happens to the SGR then what about ALL the other Wonders that do the same?

go out and have a coffee someplace nice.

I like mine with Vanilla favoring creamer and sugar, thank you.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I updated the SVN again. Apprently my math was wrong for the Launch Arcology and Colony Arcology. I had to up them to 3% and 40% because the total % of all the other housing building right below it added up to 30%. Thus having them at 20% and 25% would be a loss.

This then moved the max you can have too ...

20% + 40% + 5% + 20% = 85% Which is higher than I had before (70%) but way lower that we had before that (110%).

I am exceedingly angry at this point - I think I should stop typing, go out and have a coffee someplace nice.

Wait why?

All I did is remove the free Granary from that one. The rest of the stats are the same. Now we won't have free Granary and Modern Granary existing at the same time. Isn't that what we were trying to fix?