Competing as a midget (Immortal WT)

Obsolete, sorry to threadjack, I thought this would be within the learning immortal spirit that got the thread started:

I just played the first 58 turns, and I think I didn't do too bad compared to obsolete. Bronze working from the hut is needed to get obsolete's incredible wonder years, so the comparison is not entirely fair (I walked the other way around the capital so missed the BW).

research: fishing, BW, masonry, myst, pottery, writing
build order: worker (until fishing), workboat, worker (finish), worker, warrior, stonehenge, oracle, settler*2, pyramids

timing:
Turn 18: worker finished, will build road on plains hill waiting for BW
Turn 20: BW discovered, worker 1 built a road on the plains hill while waiting 2 turns
Turn 32: city grew to size three while building warrior, first turn of GWall
Turn 39: stonehenge finished, total 5 chops on worker and wonders, starting settlers
Turn 53: 2nd settler done, starting mids
turn 55 (1800): city #3 founded, capital at size 4 with 14*2 base production from mine, mine, quarry = 17 turns for pyramids without chops.

Compared to obsolete, stonehenge was 8 turns late,. city #3 8 turns early, pyramids will be 6 turns (turn 55+17=72, obsolete=66) late but with 7 forests left to chop for ankor wat / gardens. somewhat better research due to using fish all the time, and capital one size larger and using extra mine.

Maybe I should have chopped them earlier, I spent time roading to my new cities and building some cottages on the flood plains (I just love financial cottaged floodplains, 3f3c from turn 1. The road to city 3 is weird because I planned on founding it 1E but changed my mind, and a northern road will be useful for city 4 and avoids crossing the river until the end).

(screenshot)
 
@vanatteveldt
Yes, that’s not something I’ do, but it has its logic. What strikes me even more is the last screenshot. If am not mistaken, it’s 1400 BC, he hasn’t neither researched fishing for the clams and fish inside his capital BFC nor improved the corn, and he is researching aesthetics!!! :crazyeye: But then I’m the one for whom immortal is still a difficult level, so I may just sit back and watch.
 
@danieldaniel

I think I actually agree about the corn: with two seafood the corn is not all that useful, it is 5f1c versus the 4f3c of the clams, so researching agriculture is not very useful for the capital. It depends on the plans for the floodplains in cities 2-4. For a SE, agriculture -> farm the floodplains will greatly help get the new cities up to speed. As a Financial, I'd be tempted to cottage the floodplains for a really nice mix (4 floodplains = 12+ commerce plus two scientists), so I am planning to delay agriculture for a pretty long time (presumably after literature).
 
@danieldaniel

I think I actually agree about the corn: with two seafood the corn is not all that useful, it is 5f1c versus the 4f3c of the clams, so researching agriculture is not very useful for the capital..

Correction. The corn is irrigated so it will provide 6F 1C.
If you are at a growth stage, when food is the major factor and the city is small, you can say that corn is worth 2 clams. before lighthouse, clams bring 4f with 1 citizen, so 2F surplus. You will need 2 citizens working clams to get the same output you get from a single corn. Fish is worth 75% of irrigated corn (3 food surplus).
 
I don't see how this game is going to show wheter a WE is viable for all games, he has stone in the bfc!
Actually though I think that having a decent amount of forests is the most important.
 
Actually though I think that having a decent amount of forests is the most important.
Stone went a long way here. Those three wonders are also extremely powerful.
 
@gliese

I agree. For CE, finanical is useful, for SE, philosophical, and for WE any of phil, ind, stone, or marble. Without any of these, a WE will be less powerful than with these, hence probably not the best choice given leader and map, and may or may not be feasible given a difficulty level and player.

However, I don't think the point is showing how WE is always useful, I think the point was to show how this particular map can be beaten in immortal using a WE. The nice thing is that other people will play the same map differently, so we might be able to get some comparison.

@silverbullet
You're quite right, forgot about that. I guess that and the floodplains make cheap agriculture more useful than I thought. Having one irrigated floodplain per city really helps growth...
 
The medieval era!
--------------------


200
G-Spy pops.
-ni

375
A. Wat ready for completion.

Looks like the Apostolic palace has kicked in, that'll give me just a little bit of an extra boost.

Spoiler :
375.JPG
 
660
GP Pops.
-ni

780
G-Sci pops. Time to build our academy.

* Gave iron to hammurabi for copper, silk, and sugar. He's friendly now, and should be at pleased soon enough.
-ni

880
We must have completed education by now, as we just entered the Renaissance era...
Note: That must mean that I missed the UoS somehow.
-ni
 
I don't see how this game is going to show wheter a WE is viable for all games, he has stone in the bfc!
Actually though I think that having a decent amount of forests is the most important.
Forests are rarely a problem with the BTS map making algorithm.

BTW, has Obsolete actually claimed that his particular style is playable on all starts with all maps and leaders? I see his demonstrations more as "viable options" that you can play when certain starting conditions exist, namely, an IND or PHI leader, or Stone/Marble in the BFC, etc. I dont think he would be able to pull it off on Immortal with Churchill and no stone or marble in sight. To be honest, I dont expect him too. He is showing us an "outside the box" style that is possible in a variety of starts with a variety of leaders, but not ALL starts with ANY leader.
 
Forests are rarely a problem with the BTS map making algorithm.

BTW, has Obsolete actually claimed that his particular style is playable on all starts with all maps and leaders? I see his demonstrations more as "viable options" that you can play when certain starting conditions exist, namely, an IND or PHI leader, or Stone/Marble in the BFC, etc. I dont think he would be able to pull it off on Immortal with Churchill and no stone or marble in sight. To be honest, I dont expect him too. He is showing us an "outside the box" style that is possible in a variety of starts with a variety of leaders, but not ALL starts with ANY leader.

True but forests are more hard to come by if you play on archipelago for example.
I know Obsolete hasn't made that claim, but danieldaniel brought it up so I chimed in on the issue. Guess I should have quoted him to avoid misunderstandings.
And for the record I love the WE strategy, I've succesfully replicated Obsolete's strategy, but only on emperor so far, and it's a blast to play.
 
Any strategy that would be viable under ALL starting conditions with ALL leaders (other than an adaptation strategy) would get nerfed to hell very, very quickly.
 
@gliese

Yeah that has to be said: it is just so much fun to get all those shiny wonders and create a megapolis, and still be competitive.... it really brought back part of my enjoyment of CIV. (It's also good fun and very quick to play OCC like that, although I have trouble winning above monarch on small maps, let alone larger...)
 
@gliese

Yeah that has to be said: it is just so much fun to get all those shiny wonders and create a megapolis, and still be competitive.... it really brought back part of my enjoyment of CIV. (It's also good fun and very quick to play OCC like that, although I have trouble winning above monarch on small maps, let alone larger...)

OCC is different though but also fun. But I can't imagine doing it on a higher level without the industrous trait. I've also succeeded in a WE economy and industrial era conquest on OCC Monarch but my last attempt at Emperor failed when Shaka attacked with a 80+ stack of units, I think I only killed half of them :p.
 
I'm not sure industrious is the most important, I think spiritual is the most important as I think wasting a turn for switching (which I do quite often - you're whole one city empire is only doing one thing at a time so it's good to optimize civics for that thing). My main problem at emperor is not surviving, it is getting out there and winning the game. Space race is possible but difficult to pull off without intervening quite a lot to maintain the balance of power, if Shaka conquers half the world you're doomed anyway... but this is getting quite off-topic :-)
 
Any strategy that would be viable under ALL starting conditions with ALL leaders (other than an adaptation strategy) would get nerfed to hell very, very quickly.

At what level though? Emperor and below any leader can run a CE or SE and still win, as long as the player is good enough.
 
Obsolete, given a choice, settle on the plains hill or off?

I used to prefer off, so I can get a 4h mine. However, settling on a plains/hill early gives +1h bonus to the city so an argument can be made to do that. If it is a desert/hill, I like to settle on it as well, which removes the production deficit.

I am looking forward to seeing how you got 50 I guess you don't have emancipation yet and are running caste system?

I would have had higher, if I didn’t stop defying resolutions, etc.

Why are you delaying Fishing so much? At any rate it would have been the first thing I would have researched.

I have all the time in the world to build a fishing boat if I want to.

If that quarry had been marble instead, then things may have been different. I may have got the ToA, and then that would work ok with the great lighthouse. So THEN it is possible fishing wouldn’t be too terrible early. But that did not turn out to be.

did you reasearch bronze working -> masonry and build worker/worker(chop)/great wall/stonehenge?

I believe so.
 
The Renaissance Era!
------------------------


900
GP Pops.
-ni

1000
Liberalism race won.
I choose my trusty nationalism tech.

Note: We are quite a bit earlier than planned here. This is strange, as we lost the marble races, I.E. Oracle.

1000.JPG


Liberalism save.
 
1030
GP pops.
* Justinian completed his Mahabodhi.
-ni

1060
We meet Pericles.
-ni

1080
Taj Mahal ready for completion.

Spoiler :
1080.JPG


Note: GA pollution down to 4%, unfortunately the Taj is going to inflate that and from here on it will tend to increase.
 
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