Constructive Dialogue Concerning Racism

Whoopie Goldberg got a little heated during a discussion about racism on her daytime talk show. The twist: Whoopie was the one saying it's been blown out of proportion, and says the US is not a fundamentally racist country. Actresses Laverne Cox, Rosie O'Donnell and Rosie Perez, and former White House Director of Media Affairs Nicole Wallace also participate. NSFW language has been edited out.


Link to video.
 
Interesting that in the USA White Southerners - who seem to be the most racist group (if this statement is inaccurate then please tell me) - have also the highest % of African ancestry among Whites:

From:

"The genetic ancestry of African, Latino, and European Americans across the United States":
by Katarzyna Bryc et al., September 2014:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/09/26/009340.full.pdf

(...) Lowering the threshold to at least 1% African ancestry (potentially arising from one African genealogical ancestor within the last 11 generations), European Americans with African ancestry comprise as much as 12% of European Americans from Louisiana and South Carolina and about 1 in 10 individuals in other parts of the South (Figure S9). Lousiana’s high levels of African ancestry in European Americans are consistent with historical accounts of intermarriage in the New Orleans area. Applying these estimates to self-reported ethnicity data from the 2010 US Census suggests that over 6 million Americans, who self-identify as European, may carry African ancestry. (...)

"Mongrels often tend to be the ones most concerned about purity" applies also to the USA, it seems.

That also applied to Nazi Germany (since Germans are among the most mixed European groups).

It seems that the "One Drop Rule" doesn't work (instead the "28 out of 100 Drops Rule" works):

Relationship of self-identity and genetic ancestry.

Contrary to the one-drop rule, or the "Rule of Hypodescent", which would mandate that individuals that knowlingly carry African ancestry identify as African American, our results show that most individuals who have less than 28% African ancestry identify as European American, rather than as African American (Figures 4 and 5A). In fact, the probability of self-reporting as African American given a proportion of African ancestry follows a logistic probability curve (Figure S13, Table S5), suggesting that individuals identify roughly with the majority of their ancestry. In contrast, Latino self-reported identity becomes the most frequent identity at 5% or greater Native American ancestry (Figures S13 and 5B), suggesting differences in sociological or historical factors associated with identifying with these groups. The transitions between Latino, African American, and European American self-reported identity by proportions of African and Native American ancestry illustrate both the complexity of self-identity as well as the overlapping ancestry profiles among groups (Figure 5B).
 
Well that was a waste of time. Strongly reminded me of the "discussions" on Fox News. Shouting and posturing but little else.

"We elected Obama. So we are not racist" :lol: wonderful.

Also, not to make accusations, but as a general observation which is related: I can well imagine that black people who have made it are easily annoyed by that racism talk. Since as this one Brazilian soccer star once said: Once I was rich I was white.
 
Sorry for double post, but I just now thought of a little theory of mine I'd like to share:

It starts with this impression of mine that the contemporary struggle against racism lacks - compared to the earlier struggles in the 60s - intelligent black leadership.
And assuming that by God not reliable impression of mine was actually true - I think the reason is that by now there are many black people who are successful and feel fully integrated into society. Meaning - nowadays the black movement against racism might be lacking a black elite which leads that movement due to that elite being pretty well integrated already.

That really is just a crazy thought that randomly occurred to me. But I felt like sharing it :D
 
It's not really crazy. It's basic liberal doctrine that people need "intelligent" (re: middle class) leadership or they'll just bumble around the place hollering and soiling themselves. But, as you say, the black middle class is doing pretty okay for itself and has little motivation to rock the boat.

That's where you might take a turn for the Gramscian and start thinking about an organic leadership, a leader which emerges despite and not through the bourgeois understanding of legitimate leadership (i.e. that it is their and theirs alone). This existed in the 1960s, in groups like the Black Panther Party and the League of Revolutionary Black Workers. It's been obscured in the official histories- the Black Panthers usually appear as a grim counterpoint to moderate black leaders and at best as hopeless idealists, while the LRBW are written out altogether- but it did exist, and it did matter.

There is no ready-made black leadership in 2014. Ministers and shopkeepers are no longer capable of filling that role. But that doesn't mean that a black leadership as such is impossible, only that it isn't going to take a shape that moderates will feel comfortable with- and if that prevents it from being readily co-opted into a racist system, so much the better.
 
For what it is worth, I can see a member of the lower class be intelligent :D However, I also think that these days, after intelligent people will often be able to climb the economic ladder if they are intelligent and motivated, even if they are black, not many will be left. So that may be a problem.
For comparison, I think (just some ad-hoc-theorizing on my part) this was quit different for everyone a 100 years ago and quit different for black people in America 50 years ago. Those were, respectively, times, where up-ward mobility was so bad that many very intelligent people were stuck at the lower class or at least struggled to advance. Which then would have greatly increased the ability of the lower class to lead itself.

edit: Also just to be clear, when I say 'intelligent' I am not making assumptions why one is intelligent and why not. I am not meaning to suggest that the lower class consists of people with inferior genes or something.
 
What kind of socialist utopia do you imagine the United States to be, that not even but ability but merely the capacity for ability is enough to lead a person to success?
 
Although it's also worth noting that the LAPD pretty consciously neglected to deploy in Asian neighbourhoods in favour of white neighbourhoods, which lead many looters to attack Asian businesses out of opportunity rather than concious preference, so institutional racism also plays a part in allowing these lingering distrusts to express themselves as violence.

Hmm. That does seem to have been the case:

Thanks for bringing that up. Does make sense, at any rate. Still, the growing tensions between Asians and blacks (which still remain around today at any rate) I think played a really big role, but it is saddening to see how the police didn't give a damn about protecting non-white neighborhoods.


I would be interested in hearing from others (victims of racism) in the forum some examples of how they maybe have experienced racism. Maybe if there were more awareness of what sorts of behavior we the "majority" act in which has a negative effect on "minorities", that might be help us avoid such behavior.

As an upper-middle class Asian who has lived in extremely diverse areas most of his life, areas where 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants are usually the majority, not the minority, I haven't really dealt with a lot of racism myself per se. Probably the most notable instance I can remember of (and hardly something that traumatic), was a few years ago at the place I interned; a girl who also interned there basically had the mindset that all the Asian stereotypes were true, and that reflected in how she dealt with me, when she basically assumed I was a friendless, nerdy fellow who had nothing of a social life. Again, it wasn't very traumatic, she wasn't assaulting me and shouting slurs at me or anything, but it was disheartening to see her so casually look down at me. That said, she wasn't the most pleasant person, being rather superficial and vain to begin with, so I'll leave it at that.

In terms of what the "majority" can do to avoid a negative effect on "minorities," I can only really speak as an Asian, though I think some things apply to other groups as well. One important thing would be to avoid assumptions, and try to think in terms of the individual when you're dealing with a minority person one-on-one. Like in my example above, the girl could've simply not assumed I was a nerdy guy with no life. And even if I was, she didn't need to assume I was nerdy and introverted because I'm Asian - surprisingly, for some people, it'd be really difficult to imagine an Asian who was nerdy and introverted simply because he just so happened to be nerdy and introverted, not because he was Asian. Knowing people of another race can help, I suppose, to temper this, because then it'll be easier to see how different they can all be.

For Asians, though, one big issue is the portrayal of Asians as an exotic "other". While I don't really want to get into the specifics of it (since we'll have to go into Orientalism and other such things I don't feel like blabbering about), a number of Asians aren't satisfied with how the media has been portraying us; like I said before, Asian men are usually asexual nerds or martial artists, and women are generally fetishized. In a way, I feel it is one of the core Asian-American issues, even more so than for African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans. Anyways, this isn't exactly something any normal person can do, unless if you work in Hollywood, but supporting and watching shows and such that do a better job of portraying Asians is always a nice thing, and/or helping others realize how ridiculous some of these outdated stereotypes and elements are; back to the internship I worked at, it really made me feel a little better when I told one of my supervisors about how I wanted them to portray Asians in a more nuanced light, and he understood.

Another I can think of for Asians concerns Asian girls, so as a male I can't speak of direct experience. Essentially, according to some surveys, which may or may not be reliable, Asian women are seen as the most desirable race of women; even if this weren't exactly true, there is a certain amount of truth to it. Asian women are seen as feminine, exotic, and passive, so "traditional" female qualities. Due to that, and the Asian stereotypes, when a lot of non-Asian guys hit on Asian women, they end up sounding misguided at best and really, really creepy at worse because they make these assumptions. Things like speaking to the girl in Engrish, or saying how you know so much about so-and-so culture when it's obvious you don't, and so on. I read an article a while back about how this Asian girl had a white guy hitting on her, and he was saying how he would treat her right, and not abuse her like those evil traditional Asian men would; the girl got really pissed off and blew up on the guy, because her father was nothing like that. So, basically, if you want to date an Asian girl, don't say stupid stuff. It's not that hard, yet some people still do it, and it's becoming enough of a problem that it's hard for some Asian girls to want to be together with non-Asian guys because they aren't sure if they actually like them or if they're just idealizing/fetishizing them.

One last thing, though this varies from Asian to Asian, is don't ask where we're from. It's usually meant as a nice icebreaker, but for some Asians it's seen as insulting because it makes it sound like you're assuming we're not American and are foreigners. Though, again, this varies; I'm not too peeved by it, but for others it might be very insulting, especially those who have stayed here in the states for generations and don't know jack about their 'homeland'.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to getting to know people of other races. You don't even need to be friends with them, but at least interact with them more, know what they're like. It doesn't help fully - my dad lived in a black neighborhood for a couple of years when he came to America, had black friends there and crushed on black girls even, but he still holds some racist views - but it's a good start. I grew up in a diverse area, so I think that accounts for a lot of the reason why I didn't experience much racism myself.


Here's something random to a lot of white folk don't think about. White people, think about how much we love to be like "I'm Irish, Scottish, and German" "Really? I'm Irish too! I'm also Italian, English, Russian, Danish, and Dutch." We'll be counting off our fingers and making a show of it trying to remember them all.

So imagine someone asked your heritage and how it's fun to list your many Germans/Englishes/Polishes you've got plus that speculation of being "1/32nd Cherokee." Now imagine you're someone else and whose answer is "I wouldn't know, they were abducted and brought here as slaves."

I've met plenty of white folk who are first and second generation European-Americans, so I think those people have a right to boast about their origins. But anyways I see your point with the African-Americans. It is sad, really, even if you had a DNA test to figure out your origins, it doesn't do much for you, since you still don't have much of a connection with wherever your ancestors came from.

Actually, I think it's interesting to compare this to other Latin American countries, where Africans there do still have more of a connection to their homeland. Some of the religious practices in places like Cuba or Brazil, for instance, are close to or even exactly like the ones back in West Africa, and in some parts the people still speak their original Africna language to some extent. It's only here, in America, where the Africans were forced to forget their heritage and culture. (Not to say slavery was better per se elsewhere, but I think it's an interesting thing to consider.)

Awesome post. I think people also forget

Thank you!
 
As an upper-middle class Asian who has lived in extremely diverse areas most of his life, areas where 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants are usually the majority, not the minority, I haven't really dealt with a lot of racism myself per se. Probably the most notable instance I can remember of (and hardly something that traumatic), was a few years ago at the place I interned; a girl who also interned there basically had the mindset that all the Asian stereotypes were true, and that reflected in how she dealt with me, when she basically assumed I was a friendless, nerdy fellow who had nothing of a social life. Again, it wasn't very traumatic, she wasn't assaulting me and shouting slurs at me or anything, but it was disheartening to see her so casually look down at me. That said, she wasn't the most pleasant person, being rather superficial and vain to begin with, so I'll leave it at that.

In terms of what the "majority" can do to avoid a negative effect on "minorities," I can only really speak as an Asian, though I think some things apply to other groups as well. One important thing would be to avoid assumptions, and try to think in terms of the individual when you're dealing with a minority person one-on-one. Like in my example above, the girl could've simply not assumed I was a nerdy guy with no life. And even if I was, she didn't need to assume I was nerdy and introverted because I'm Asian - surprisingly, for some people, it'd be really difficult to imagine an Asian who was nerdy and introverted simply because he just so happened to be nerdy and introverted, not because he was Asian. Knowing people of another race can help, I suppose, to temper this, because then it'll be easier to see how different they can all be.

For Asians, though, one big issue is the portrayal of Asians as an exotic "other". While I don't really want to get into the specifics of it (since we'll have to go into Orientalism and other such things I don't feel like blabbering about), a number of Asians aren't satisfied with how the media has been portraying us; like I said before, Asian men are usually asexual nerds or martial artists, and women are generally fetishized. In a way, I feel it is one of the core Asian-American issues, even more so than for African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans. Anyways, this isn't exactly something any normal person can do, unless if you work in Hollywood, but supporting and watching shows and such that do a better job of portraying Asians is always a nice thing, and/or helping others realize how ridiculous some of these outdated stereotypes and elements are; back to the internship I worked at, it really made me feel a little better when I told one of my supervisors about how I wanted them to portray Asians in a more nuanced light, and he understood.

Another I can think of for Asians concerns Asian girls, so as a male I can't speak of direct experience. Essentially, according to some surveys, which may or may not be reliable, Asian women are seen as the most desirable race of women; even if this weren't exactly true, there is a certain amount of truth to it. Asian women are seen as feminine, exotic, and passive, so "traditional" female qualities. Due to that, and the Asian stereotypes, when a lot of non-Asian guys hit on Asian women, they end up sounding misguided at best and really, really creepy at worse because they make these assumptions. Things like speaking to the girl in Engrish, or saying how you know so much about so-and-so culture when it's obvious you don't, and so on. I read an article a while back about how this Asian girl had a white guy hitting on her, and he was saying how he would treat her right, and not abuse her like those evil traditional Asian men would; the girl got really pissed off and blew up on the guy, because her father was nothing like that. So, basically, if you want to date an Asian girl, don't say stupid stuff. It's not that hard, yet some people still do it, and it's becoming enough of a problem that it's hard for some Asian girls to want to be together with non-Asian guys because they aren't sure if they actually like them or if they're just idealizing/fetishizing them.

One last thing, though this varies from Asian to Asian, is don't ask where we're from. It's usually meant as a nice icebreaker, but for some Asians it's seen as insulting because it makes it sound like you're assuming we're not American and are foreigners. Though, again, this varies; I'm not too peeved by it, but for others it might be very insulting, especially those who have stayed here in the states for generations and don't know jack about their 'homeland'.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to getting to know people of other races. You don't even need to be friends with them, but at least interact with them more, know what they're like. It doesn't help fully - my dad lived in a black neighborhood for a couple of years when he came to America, had black friends there and crushed on black girls even, but he still holds some racist views - but it's a good start. I grew up in a diverse area, so I think that accounts for a lot of the reason why I didn't experience much racism myself.

Good information to know. Thanks for posting it cybrxkhan!

Fortunately asking people I meet where they are from is usually not something I do a whole lot. Under most circumstances it doesn't seem all that important. As you say it's maybe an "icebreaker" for some people when they ask.

Sorry to hear about your internship experience. For some reason I have usually been perceived by most others I meet as a "wallflower" or something. I'm not very talkative and don't make "casual conversation" very well so people tend to ignore me after a few minutes, which is OK by me. I'm just as comfortable with being ignored. If I were the center of attention at a cocktail party or whatever I wouldn't know what to do. I'd probably do something really stupid first thing and end whatever popularity I may have started with. :blush:
 
Fortunately asking people I meet where they are from is usually not something I do a whole lot. Under most circumstances it doesn't seem all that important. As you say it's maybe an "icebreaker" for some people when they ask.

I sometimes say something like. "Excuse me for asking, but I couldn't help notice your accent. Where's it from? Is it <suchandsuchaplace>?"

Now, that plainly won't work if they don't have an accent. And one guy I asked recently only came from 15 miles away from where I live. (He talked a bit strangely, and I thought at first he was from Wales. Turned out he'd had a stroke.)

But prefacing a question to a stranger with "Excuse me for asking, but..." doesn't tend to provoke a negative response in anyone I've ever tried it on.

Though I don't try it with people who look naturally aggressive, unfriendly, or are busy talking animatedly with their friends.

If it turns out they're from somewhere I've been then I can follow it up with questions related to my own experience. And if not, then it's a case of "Ohh! Really? I've never been there. What's it like? Do they have people with elbows and knees there too?" And so forth.
 
lots of good stuff

One of the weird observations I've wandered across is one you get far enough as the PRC some of the Western guys I know report some of the opposite, girls who they know more than casually will assume that they'll be kinder in some ways than local boys. More inclined to put family alongside career, change dirty diapers, less likely to demand play on the side, that sort of thing. Which is weird when you cross it with the simultaneous assumption that many rich Western guys are shallow and just out for play with the locals. World's an odd place.

Total tangent: I don't see a thread up on it, don't remember the thread it was in, and don't want to make one so this is close enough, the Montana guys who wasted the German exchange student for breaking into his garage was convicted the other day. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...und-guilty-of-killing-german-exchange-student
 
W. Goldberg? Last thing i recall her being good in was Girl Interrupted. That was what, 18 years ago?...

As for more on the core of the issue: Racism could in my view become irrelevant, but surely not by having morons shouting accusations at each other. That only makes things worse, and i have to suppose that many in those crowds even do it on purpose. A good case of that would be that downright abysmal DOJ general... He is 'white like Frank Black is'.
 
W. Goldberg? Last thing I recall her being good in was "The Colour Purple". That was what, 1985?

(In fact, that's the only thing I recall her being good in. And my memory may be playing me tricks, anyway.)
 
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