COTM 02: Pregame discussion

[predesad]

I will be trying the GOTM for the first time now that it supports conquests, hate that i missed COTM - 1, but waiting anxiously for COTM - 2.

As far as the SGL discussion goes, I personally think they are the worst thing ever put into a game. There is absolutely no strategy invovled in trying to generatre one and any little strategy one miught conjure up is completely useless since the whole thing is based solely on luck AND it is the single most powerful unit in the game. I like them even less than I do respawning the AI.

 

[Rustwork]

we where never polled on the start location, or choice of civ, or map size, or level, or........ personally i feel it's cheap when i happen to get an SGL. racing for a wonder without the benefit of a leader is more satisfying.

every game that i have tried to cultivate an MGL i have been successful doing so. This required more effort during some games, but i always eventually got one; once you have one, it's very easy to build the war academy and then you can have armies as fast as you can build them. so, nobody should have much difficulty acquiring an MGL if they really want one. it certainly isn't unbalancing.

whereas, i have played many games with a dominate tech lead and was never rewarded with an SGL. i have actually only had 3 in roughly 50 games (2 where on chieftan when i needed an ego boost, and had the tech lead by an age-and-a-half). over the course of an entire game all other random chances are applied more often and with better odds. the occurences of winning or losing when you should have done the opposite, over the course of an entire game, will be closey the same for everyone; certainly better chance of this than ever having an SGL. Besides, the better players will be ahead in tech more often and for longer, so they would have a greater proportion of SGLs than the rest of us. No Thanks, i'm glad they're out!

EDIT - I want to see what is on the other side of the hill. I betcha it's just another hill.

 

[SniperDevil]

me too show us the other side of the hill!

 

[dojoboy]

we where never polled on the start location, or choice of civ, or map size, or level, or........ personally i feel it's cheap when i happen to get an SGL. racing for a wonder without the benefit of a leader is more satisfying.

SGL's have been turned off in the COTM series, MGL's only.

 

[SirPleb]

I'm considering joining the worker to the first ciy after improving the starting Grassland
...
If Research is more important than production, this seems a reasonable way to start the game.

That makes a lot of sense civ_steve. If we're on a small island (you can stop laughing now ainwood ) the sequence you suggest is rather nice. I just tried it out to 2510BC and found that I could actually re-create the worker at that date (not sure I'd want to but it made the comparison interesting) and still be ahead in population, and net shields and gold produced to that date, vs. an approach which doesn't join the worker. Very interesting!

 

[civ_steve]

Now I definitely feel better about the strategy! Thanks for testing it out, SirPleb (something I haven't found the time to do, even though this has been percolating in my head for a while.)

What makes it more appealing in this case is the (assumed, since we don't really know yet) constrained land that is available to us. The only value the Worker give us after improving the Grassland, is to start working on the hills. It takes 6 turns to make a road, and 12 to mine, which only give us +1 shield/+1 commerce. Making a city on one of the hills give us +1food/+2commerce instantly, which seems a good trade off. And with increased commerce being desirable, its better to work a coastal space than even a mined/roaded hill, so you really shouldn't be worried about improving the hills. In a normal game the worker would go off and build roads, connect luxuries, irrigate plains, etc, which is valuable; that value doesn't seem to exist in this start.

For a general case, I think the best time to use the Joined Worker technique is a low food start (no food bonuses; a food bonus allows the standard start to grow fast enough to offset any benefit), at least 2 nearby BGs, with Industrious trait (Worker does more work before being joined) and/or Expansionistic trait (Scout looks around while capital builds fast Settler.) In this case you can end up with 2 cities and 2 Workers (and a few other units) about the time a standard start is spitting out it's first Settler. I've been tempted to quantify the pros and cons into an article; for a general start you have to delay your scouting because you're focused on building that first Settler (which is why Expansionistic trait helps). Since the benefit of joining the starting worker is usually marginal, it seems a poor tradeoff if scouting around is delayed and you can't make early contacts. (Not the case when you're all alone on an island; there's those assumptions again! ... only one more day...)

 

[gozpel]

Some funne calculations there about the SGL's. Everyone has the same chance of getting this leader no matter what and how you calculate 1 in 33 chances.

As I see it it's not a reason to turn it off. If there is 33 players this month, all 33 can get the leader or none. Or 12 for what I care. We just play with the same save, every game after that is different and doesn't stop anyone from getting SGL's. So if a player in Toronto hit the jackpot, so can any player in Mozambique or Outer Hebrides.

 

[Stone Wolf]

Could MGLs be given the ability to rush wonders if SGLs are going to be kept off? I'm trying to force myself to develop my combat tactics, and the ability to rush wonders takes some of the reward away.

 

[klarius]

I played my test game a little further. I could reach the phylosophy->republic slingshot at 1475BC. That's with only two cities on the tiny island (and probably messing up a few turns). I'm now really in doubt, if one should even look for a better start position. Map making can probably be traded for or researched quick after that.

 

[ainwood]

Minimap:

 

[a space oddity]

What are the odds that it's a peninsula after all...?

 

[ShaoKai]

what about disable the SGL in the AA and MA, then enable it afeter MA. I think that wouldn't affact the game too much while some of us can enjoy the SGLs

 

[klarius]

I just tried it out to 2510BC and found that I could actually re-create the worker at that date (not sure I'd want to but it made the comparison interesting) and still be ahead in population, and net shields and gold produced to that date, vs. an approach which doesn't join the worker. Very interesting!

Peeling of a worker at the turn you go from 2 food surplus to one makes a lot of sense to me. If you merge it again 10 turns later, you will reach your maximum supported size for the city 10 turns earlier. The sum of commerce is the same, but you won 10 worker turns for a road in a hill.
You lose also 10 shields, but it's questionable what to do with the shields anyways (I didn't really work out a good schedule for a granary by now, that may be the better option).

 

[ainwood]

The conquest-class players will start with 50 gold, a warrior and an extra worker (quite generous, I think ). Anyone want to give them some suggestions about what to do with this advantage?

 

[Karasu]

Anyone want to give them some suggestions about what to do with this advantage?

Not until you tell us what civ we play...

 

[klarius]

The conquest-class players will start with 50 gold, a warrior and an extra worker (quite generous, I think ). Anyone want to give them some suggestions about what to do with this advantage?

If we should really end up on a tiny island , don't play conquest-class. The bonus isn't worth much and you're in danger to have too many units too early.

 

[dojoboy]

Not until you tell us what civ we play...

That's it, now we've got him!

 

[King Of America]

1. Send warrior to either hill first.

2. Send extra worker SE.

This will help determine what to do with the Settler.

The bonuses suggest to me that we're not on a tiny island--no point in giving bonus units in that kind of situation (unless you also plan to allow transporting units in curraghs )

 

[t3h_m013]

just checking, cotm 2 istarts on the 16th or so doesnt it? it hasnt alreayd?

 

[Dianthus]

just checking, cotm 2 istarts on the 16th or so doesnt it? it hasnt alreayd?

COTM2 should start on the 1st July, assuming ainwood doesn't surprise us in some way .