Crime and Punishment

[Farm Boy]

You would have to be pretty trusting in general to think it likely Epstien killed himself on the probabilities.

 

[Bamspeedy]

She wasn't offered a plea bargain IIRC,

Correct. And the defense didn't offer a deal to the prosecution either. Prosecutors felt they had enough evidence for a conviction, the defense was under the belief she might be found not guilty.

It's possible she can get a new trial because allegedly one juror lied during the jury selection process about if the juror had ever been a victim of sexual abuse. He just 'blew through' the questions without reading them carefully apparently.

So she's still in the denial phase, thinking there is a way out of this with no long prison time or having to reveal names. After all options are exhausted, then she might consider revealing names, suicide....or someone else decides 'suicide'.

That assumes she has a comprehensive list for each customer of.

Customer Name
Young Girl Name
Date
Location
Sexual Act

yes, there would be some doubt as to the truthfulness of her revealing the names without some sort of evidence beyond her word.

You would have to be pretty trusting in general to think it likely Epstien killed himself on the probabilities.

He was murdered is a more believable theory than some of the conspiracy theories I've read. Doesn't make it true. The fact he had potentially valuable information, doesn't make him any less suicidal than anybody else. If he revealed names, he would still spend considerable time in prison and loss of most/all of his assets.

So, who did it? The guards help out in the plan? (directly and knowingly, not unwittingly by being unprofessional and not following protocol.). People don't follow procedures all the time, and don't get fired until caught. A death gets them caught not following procedures and got them fired. Unless I hear one of those guards are 'living it up' in some Carribean island with a cash flow from a mysterious source, I don't think they were knowingly involved. So did an assassin sneak into the prison?

Facing a long prison sentence, it's not surprising one wants to commit suicide. And for a person who was previously used to a very comfortable life, prison would be extra harsh for him.

 

[Farm Boy]

I just am guessing if anyone is cheap to off, a serial rapist is right up there. But yeah, it doesn't make it true.

 

[Yeekim]

She could be sentenced to 40-50 years and even half time for good behavior puts her away for 20-25. That is a life sentence for all practical purposes. A net 5-10 years for ratting out pedophiles seems a no brainer. If Jeffrey was murdered, then that puts a new spin on it all.

That sentence sounds absolutely insane...but then again, most sentences in the US do sound insane to me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Correct. And the defense didn't offer a deal to the prosecution either. Prosecutors felt they had enough evidence for a conviction, the defense was under the belief she might be found not guilty.

My point in saying this is that clearly, the prosecution didn't want to delve too deeply into other people involved. The trial was constrained to Maxwell. Relatively few victims/witness testimony, no offer to her to also implicate the people who went for these "services". A lot of people should have paid for the crimes, but this trial was designed and executed in a way where it was Maxwell alone.

Perhaps the defense thought they could win based on the restrictions the prosecution was operating other to limit the evidence to her, but that seems pretty optimistic to me.

Unless I hear one of those guards are 'living it up' in some Carribean island with a cash flow from a mysterious source, I don't think they were knowingly involved.

What makes you think you would hear this?

 

[Bamspeedy]

My point in saying this is that clearly, the prosecution didn't want to delve too deeply into other people involved. The trial was constrained to Maxwell. Relatively few victims/witness testimony, no offer to her to also implicate the people who went for these "services". A lot of people should have paid for the crimes, but this trial was designed and executed in a way where it was Maxwell alone.

Having evidence against the other 'Johns' I'm sure was an issue. They had more witnesses to use against her than any specific John (after Epstein). Maxwell got her own trial, Epstein got his own trial.

What makes you think you would hear this?

Im sure the tabloids would love to have information such as this if it were true.

Sure, maybe they didn't get paid enough to live an extravagant lifestyle that would attract attention (or smart enough to hide it), or maybe after being named publicly as 'sleeping on the job', they are having as nearly as a difficult time of finding jobs as convicts would (not interesting for the tabloids to report).

Edit: Update on the guards:

https://nypost.com/2021/12/30/jeffrey-epsteins-prison-guards-to-complete-community-service/

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Having evidence against the other 'Johns' I'm sure was an issue. They had more witnesses to use against her than any specific John (after Epstein). Maxwell got her own trial, Epstein got his own trial.

Point being that I will be surprised, if the other people involved in this get their own trials.

Edit: Update on the guards:

Charges were dropped, not a lot of details otherwise. Though I could also buy that Epstein had other threats such that suicide was the preferable alternative, and that the guards were mostly just looking the other way rather than explicitly offing him, the means/way he died is still suspicious.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Ahmaud Arbery's killers sentenced to life in prison for 25-year-old Black man's murder
By Dakin Andone, Eliott C. McLaughlin, Alta Spells and Devon M. Sayers, CNN
Updated 7:29 PM ET, Fri January 7, 2022


https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/07/us/ahmaud-arbery-sentencing-killers-mcmichael-bryan/index.html

 

[Samson]

Prince Andrew to face [un]civil sex assault

Prince Andrew is to face a civil case in the US over allegations he sexually assaulted a woman when she was 17.

Virginia Giuffre is suing the prince, claiming he abused her in 2001.

His lawyers said the case should be thrown out, citing a 2009 deal she signed with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. But a New York judge ruled that the claim could be heard.
​

Prince Andrew, Virginia Roberts (now Giuffre) and Ghislaine Maxwell in 2001. The prince holds that they never met.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Unfortunately, a civil case is unlikely to out more people in that chain. I expect he will just pay and make it go away. I want to be wrong about this.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Prince Andrew to face [un]civil sex assault

Prince Andrew is to face a civil case in the US over allegations he sexually assaulted a woman when she was 17.

Virginia Giuffre is suing the prince, claiming he abused her in 2001.

His lawyers said the case should be thrown out, citing a 2009 deal she signed with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. But a New York judge ruled that the claim could be heard.
​

Prince Andrew, Virginia Roberts (now Giuffre) and Ghislaine Maxwell in 2001. The prince holds that they never met.

I do suggest you read the tile of the article you are linking.

Prince Andrew says he has 'no recollection of ever meeting' Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre

Not recollecting meeting someone is not the same as saying they never met.

Over the years, I must have met loads of people that I cannot now remember ever meeting.

And for a UK Royal who meets more than me, that will be more common. However the converse is not so as
people are more likely to remember their meeting with Royalty, than Royalty is to remember meeting them.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not recollecting meeting someone is not the same as saying they never met.

True, though this is really just about meeting burden of evidence on whether or not the alleged actions took place. Civil cases have a lower bar than criminal, so we'll see what comes out. I still guess the answer is "settlement" though.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I am not so sure.

Any settlement out of court will be seen as an admission of guilt by Prince Andrew.

I fear that it is likely the legal battles will continue until ended by another death.

 

[Samson]

Over the years, I must have met loads of people that I cannot now remember ever meeting.

How many of them did you have your arm around in such a manner?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Gaetz's ex-girlfriend enters Florida courthouse where grand jury investigating the congressman meets

(CNN)An ex-girlfriend of Rep. Matt Gaetz, who is seen as a key witness in the ongoing investigation into alleged sex trafficking by the Florida Republican, entered an Orlando federal courthouse with her lawyer on Wednesday where a grand jury has been meeting, according to a CNN reporter on the scene.

A source familiar with the case previously told CNN the ex-girlfriend was expected to testify before the grand jury investigating Gaetz.
The woman, a former Capitol Hill staffer, has been linked to Gaetz as far back as the summer of 2017. Investigators are interested in that period of time because that is when the congressman is accused of having sexual contact with another woman, who was 17 years old at the time. The ex-girlfriend also could be integral for authorities investigating potential obstruction of justice as the probe into Gaetz's conduct heated up. CNN has reported that investigators are aware of a discussion that Gaetz and an associate had about talking to her in October 2020.

Multiple people familiar with the matter have told CNN that a grand jury -- a group of laymen who hears evidence presented by prosecutors behind closed doors about a potential crime -- has been meeting at the George C. Young Federal Annex Courthouse regarding the Gaetz investigation.
The lawyer for the ex-girlfriend, Timothy Jansen, declined to comment. A Justice Department spokesman declined to comment. Gaetz has denied any wrongdoing and has not been charged with a crime. His attorney and spokesman have not responded to requests from CNN for comment.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/12/politics/matt-gaetz-grand-jury/index.html

 

[EnglishEdward]

How many of them did you have your arm around in such a manner?

Far more than I can remember.

And I was quite shy in my youth so it was probably less than most of my generation.

And such impromptu posing for a photo usually meant very little.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It does mean that he met her and spent enough time with her that both feel comfortable with the pose and his hand on her skin.

 

[Bamspeedy]

How many of them did you have your arm around in such a manner?

I'm sure he has been asked to pose for a pic with someone far more often in one year than I ever will in my lifetime.
A little alcohol and I could see myself putting my arms around a girl I've never met before if she asked to take a pic with me. Alcohol does not HAVE to lead to sex (although obviously it can).

Posing with someone for a pic, even if I had my arms around them, I wouldn't remember that 20 years later if that was pretty much my only interaction with them.

It's very possible he doesn't remember her at all. And it's also possible he is lying through his teeth.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Yes, it means he met her. That is all.

And @ Bamspeedy has it about right.

The occasions I remember most was when I was sober (biking or driving), and
determinedly summoned to put my arm around someone for a photo.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I am not so sure.

Any settlement out of court will be seen as an admission of guilt by Prince Andrew.

I fear that it is likely the legal battles will continue until ended by another death.

True, Andrew will likely leave it as he said/she said unless there's evidence that otherwise tips the scale. Unless prosecution tactics change drastically since the Maxwell trial, it looks unlikely anybody will tighten investigative screws on that.