Crime - foreigners - statistics

[Winner]

We had an interesting discussion about statistics and impossibility to prove that immigrants from certain cultural background cause proportionally more crime than others (yes, it was all about Muslims) in the "Future of Sweden" thread.

I checked the NationMaster.com for relevant data that would at least partially confirm my views. Admittedly, there are not enough statistics to prove (or disprove) this claim.

More on the point of this thread: I found an interesting statistic showing the percentage of foreigners in prisons in selected countries. What is really interesting is that countries which are more open to immigration also tend to have their prisons filled with foreigners, whose relative share is much higher than their total share of the population. For example in Netherlands, 36% of prisoners are foreigners, but their share of the population is only about 10% In Belgium, it is 40% of prisoners compared to 7% immigrant share of the population. In Sweden, it is 27% compared to 12%.

At the same time, my country, the Czech Republic, which has only few thousand Muslims among its population of 10.3 million, looks very different: 9.4% of prisoners are foreigners compared to 4.4% immigrant share.

Crime Statistics > Prisoners > Foreign prisoners by country

Immigration Statistics > immigrant population > Immigrants as percentage of state population by country

So, does it prove, that immigrants (mosty Muslims in case of Europe) tend to cause more crime than the general population, or not? I admit not all of the numbers fit (especially the US one looks very suspicious), but I think the general trend is obvious.

 

[C~G]

At first I thought I might have something to say about the issue as I read thread title (there's nothing wrong analysing crimes and statistics).
But..

If this would be foreigners only it would still border xenophobia but the underlying tones make it islamophobic trollthread.

 

[JollyRoger]

If you did a comparison on economic status and likelihood to end up incarcerated and you compared immigrants as a group against citizens of a similar economic class as a group, you would likely find the numbers leveling off by quite a bit.

 

[Berrie]

I agree with the two poster before me.

And I would like to add that you need also a statistic on the number of muslims immigrants in those countries. Like I said in the other thread, most immigrants in Belgium come from other countries in Europe (i.e. not muslims) and some of those groups are causing the most trouble.

 

[Winner]

At first I thought I might have something to say about the issue as I read thread title (there's nothing wrong analysing crimes and statistics).
But..

If this would be foreigners only it would still border xenophobia but the underlying tones make it islamophobic trollthread.

Wait - data are xenophobic?

I want to know what you think about this, and you reply with political correctness, which is somewhat symptomatic of these days.

 

[Winner]

I agree with the two poster before me.

And I would like to add that you need also a statistic on the number of muslims immigrants in those countries. Like I said in the other thread, most immigrants in Belgium come from other countries in Europe (i.e. not muslims) and some of those groups are causing the most trouble.

It's not only about muslims, you can take it for immigration in general.

 

[Rik Meleet]

You have to look at these figures with an open mind. I get clear indications the OP has not done that.

First of all, you EXPECT the crimerate of foreigners to be higher than that of locals. Why? Because many foreigners go to countries specifically to do crimes. Drugrunners from South America go to Europe for the sole reason of crime. What purpose would a Russian Maffia Member have in Iceland except to do crime. At the same time, non-foreigners have millions of reasons to be in their country, so not only crime.

The link crime-religion is not indicated. I know for fact that many of the foreign criminals in the Netherlands are not muslim. Many are Hindu and Christian.

People get arrested for actions in other countries that are not crimes in their own country. Examples are French soft-drugs lovers who on their way back from the Netherlands get arrested in Belgium. Or possession of Alcohol. Or Abortion, exercising freedom of speech, sailing your boat into Iranian waters. ETC.

Your conclusion is unbased.

 

[JollyRoger]

Wait - data are xenophobic?

The way data is used can be xenophobic. Your data grossly oversimplifies the situation to reach an arguably xenophobic conclusion.

 

[Truronian]

Correlation =/= Causation

I suspect (as someone else pointed out) that this has a lot more to do with wealth than country of origin, and as immigrants are generally poorer they are going to be overrepresented in prison.

 

[Winner]

You have to look at these figures with an open mind. I get clear indications the OP has not done that.

When I look at this with no purpose (and I openly admitted that I looked for these numbers for a purpose), I still see that Belgium, which has only 7% immigrant population has its prisons literally filled with foreigners.

If foreigners who live in Belgium caused same "amount" of crime as the native population, only 7% of the prisoner would be of foreign origin.

So you have two options here: either you refute these numbers (I don't guarantee their accuracy), or you have to admit that foreigners cause proportionally more crime than native Belgians. Which one is it?

First of all, you EXPECT the crimerate of foreigners to be higher than that of locals. Why? Because many foreigners go to countries specifically to do crimes. Drugrunners from South America go to Europe for the sole reason of crime. What purpose would a Russian Maffia Member have in Iceland except to do crime. At the same time, non-foreigners have millions of reasons to be in their country, so not only crime.

Why is the ratio in Central European countries (which should be filled with Russian mafia) so low?

Anyway, I'd expect it to be, I don't know, few per cent higher, not 570% higher in case of Belgium.

The link crime-religion is not indicated. I know for fact that many of the foreign criminals in the Netherlands are not muslim. Many are Hindu and Christian.

Then don't think about the religion, it still proves that foreigners cause more crime. And most of these foreigners in Belgium or Netherlands are Muslims, is that right?

People get arrested for actions in other countries that are not crimes in their own country. Examples are French soft-drugs lovers who on their way back from the Netherlands get arrested in Belgium. Or possession of Alcohol. Or Abortion, exercising freedom of speech, sailing your boat into Iranian waters. ETC.

Most male prisoners, some 43 percent, are jailed for violent offences. They are mostly young male adults: half of prisoners under the age of 25 are sentenced for violent crimes.

Source: Statistics Netherlands

Your conclusion is unbased.

Unbased? These numbers are clear, once again: it looks like that foreigners cause proportionally MUCH more crime than the native population, ESPECIALLY in Western European countries, which also have a large Muslim population.

 

[Winner]

Correlation =/= Causation

I suspect (as someone else pointed out) that this has a lot more to do with wealth than country of origin, and as immigrants are generally poorer they are going to be overrepresented in prison.

And they usually get into prisons because they commited a crime, don't they?

 

[Winner]

The way data is used can be xenophobic. Your data grossly oversimplifies the situation to reach an arguably xenophobic conclusion.

Will you kindly stop avoiding the only reasonable conclusion?

When 40% (!!!) of criminals are foreigners in a country which only has 7% foreign share of its population, it means the foreigners cause more crime.

Pure math, there is nothing xenophobic about it. You can disagree with me, hate me, but unless you can refute the data, you have to admit I am right.

 

[JollyRoger]

And they usually get into prisons because they commited a crime, don't they?

As do the poorer natives at a higher rate than better off natives. If you want to do a valid comparison, you would have to compare the immigrants as a class against the natives of similar economic means as a class.

 

[Truronian]

And they usually get into prisons because they commited a crime, don't they?

Yes, but that's not because they are immigrants, its because they are poor. Why even bring immigration into it?

 

[JollyRoger]

Will you kindly stop avoiding the only reasonable conclusion?

When 40% (!!!) of criminals are foreigners in a country which only has 7% foreign share of its population, it means the foreigners cause more crime.

Pure math, there is nothing xenophobic about it. You can disagree with me, hate me, but unless you can refute the data, you have to admit I am right.

I have refuted your proper use of the data in a couple of posts that you have chosen to ignore.

 

[Winner]

As do the poorer natives at a higher rate than better off natives. If you want to do a valid comparison, you would have to compare the immigrants as a class against the natives of similar economic means as a class.

You still don't get the point.

I don't ask WHY they commit crimes, I just prove that they do it more often than the native population.

 

[Rossiya]

Yes, but that's not because they are immigrants, its because they are poor. Why even bring immigration into it?

Agreed. It's exactly what I was going to say.

 

[Rik Meleet]

So you have two options here: either you refute these numbers (I don't guarantee their accuracy), or you have to admit that foreigners cause proportionally more crime than native Belgians. Which one is it?

The only valid conclusion is that foreigners cause proportionally more crime than native Belgians IN BELGIUM ITSELF. Same for Belgians causing proportianally more crime in an other countries than the inhabitants of that country themselves IN THAT SPECIFIC COUNTRY ITSELF.
Subtle but important change.

Then don't think about the religion, it still proves that foreigners cause more crime. And most of these foreigners in Belgium or Netherlands are Muslims, is that right?

No, most foreigners in the Netherlands are German, Belgians. Most people that you label foreigners are in fact Dutch.

 

[Winner]

I have refuted your proper use of the data in a couple of posts that you have chosen to ignore.

No, you just said it is irrelevant because you don't like what I want to prove. You refuted nothing, especially not the simple statistical fact. 40% - 7% Simple.

 

[HannibalBarka]

That is very often the case Winner, you are right. It doesn't have any thing to do with the Religion you keep bashing though because we see the same statistics even in countries where immigrant come from "non islamic countries" and because otherwise you'll find more criminals in Islamic countries than elsewhere, and that is not the case.
Reasons:

1. Immigrants are poorer than the average "native", poor tend to make it to the prison more often than middle class or rich.
2. Immigrants are Younger than the average "native", 80 years old people very rarely commit crimes ;-)
3. Immigrants are Maler than the average "native" ie there are more Males than females, and again humans with balls commit more crimes than humans with boobs.

See now?

If you want "less criminal" immigrants, close the frontier to every one but Rich Widows