Crime - foreigners - statistics

[C~G]

Wait - data are xenophobic?

I want to know what you think about this, and you reply with political correctness, which is somewhat symptomatic of these days.

I was about to tell you that statistics are some what correct but they aren't accurate enough showing the reasons behind the crime but as said for you the reason seems to be obvious, it's because they are foreigners or more likely from your pov muslims.

Something like this way:

Unbased? These numbers are clear, once again: it looks like that foreigners cause proportionally MUCH more crime than the native population, ESPECIALLY in Western European countries, which also have a large Muslim population.

This is just another rant from you which you guise to be about crime statistics. Nice one.

Let alone do you have statistics that muslims are behind this and if they are, does it have anything to do with some other factor in their backgroud (like being poor) than Islam?

But of course most of the immigrants in europe are from muslim countries, most of them are fundies and most of them commit crime.
After all otherwise the fascist xenophobic Europe couldn't revolve around it's navel any more and could slip out of it's orbit completely.

 

[Winner]

Yes, but that's not because they are immigrants, its because they are poor. Why even bring immigration into it?

Again, you don't get the point (ok, you don't want to admit that) - I don't care why they do that, I just show they do that.

BTW, does that mean that the Ukrainians who live in the Czech Republic are so (relatively) rich (compared to the other Czechs) they don't cause so much crime?

 

[JollyRoger]

You still don't get the point.

I don't ask WHY they commit crimes, I just prove that they do it more often than the native population.

I get the point. You are making use of very crude statistical measures to reach very crude conclusions.

 

[Elrohir]

I think foreigners in general make up a higher percentage of the prison population than of the general population as a whole. I know in the US, some people make a big hullabaloo about how illegal immigrants (Mostly from Mexico and South America) Make up 21% of the prison population, despite making up only 3% of the adult population.

I don't think religion itself is an accurate indicator of whether you'll commit a crime in a foreign country, as most of the illegals we have here are either atheist or Catholic. I think it can be shown that Muslims are more likely to support Al Qaeda (Obviously) and are more likely to support suicide bombings than any other group, but the numbers on that are generally still low, and as members of the regular population I doubt they commit more crimes than their non-Muslim counterparts.

 

[Verbose]

Do "foreignness" compel people to commit crime?
Or is poverty and a general lack of opportunities compel people to commit crime?
How is being foreign linked to being poor?
What is the connection between the ability to integrate in a new society and the possibility of being allowed to do so?

There is a ton of problems involved here. It's certainly not all rosy and peachy. Question is just if this is best adressed on the level of individual responsibility, or the level of collective structures?

How does one in fact integrate in a place like Sweden? What are the obstacles. And believe you me, there are obstacles being raised in front of newcomers.

For a bit of historical comparison. This one was out together by US Eugenicists in the 1930's. We can assume the statistics involved was impeccable. Their conclusions as to the level of problems certain groups would cause over time were not:

 

[Winner]

This is just another rant from you which you guise to be about crime statistics. Nice one.

Why is it a rant? Because it's true? Or because you don't like it? Or because I am saying it?

Let alone do you have statistics that muslims are behind this and if they are, does it have anything to do with some other factor in their backgroud (like being poor) than Islam?

In this thread, I focus more on the immigration in general, I implied in the OP that I don't have enough evidence to blame Muslims. I just point at interesting fact that countries whose immigrants are largely Muslims tend to have the crime-immigrant ratio a bit elevated.

But of course most of the immigrants in europe are from muslim countries, most of them are fundies and most of them commit crime.
After all otherwise the fascist xenophobic Europe couldn't revolve around it's navel any more and could slip out of it's orbit completely.

Now, this is rant

Could you stop over-reacting and be objective for a while?

 

[Truronian]

Again, you don't get the point (ok, you don't want to admit that) - I don't care why they do that, I just show they do that.

Why do you want to show that? Its about as useful as me pointing out a correlation between playing basketball and being able to reach jars that are on the top shelf of the supermarket.

 

[Winner]

I get the point. You are making use of very crude statistical measures to reach very crude conclusions.

You can say it this way, yes.

 

[Winner]

Why do you want to show that? Its about as useful as me pointing out a correlation between playing basketball and being able to reach jars that are on the top shelf of the supermarket.

Because certain people in certain thread, and certain people in general, claim there is absolutely no correlation between immigration and crime level.

This proves they're wrong.

 

[CrazyScientist]

Again, you don't get the point (ok, you don't want to admit that) - I don't care why they do that, I just show they do that.

It's not a question of why, it's a question of if. If you want to draw the conclusion that being a foreigner makes you more likely to commit crimes, then you need to correct for potential confounding factors, one of which is socioeconomic class.

Note the difference between these two statements.

1) A disproportionate number of crimes are commited by foreigners.
2) Being a foreigner means you are more likely to commit a crime.

The data you've presented suggests that #1 may be true, but without eliminating confounding factors you cannot conclude from that that #2 is also true.

 

[Winner]

Do "foreignness" compel people to commit crime?
Or is poverty and a general lack of opportunities compel people to commit crime?
How is being foreign linked to being poor?
What is the connection between the ability to integrate in a new society and the possibility of being allowed to do so?

There is a ton of problems involved here. It's certainly not all rosy and peachy. Question is just if this is best adressed on the level of individual responsibility, or the level of collective structures?

Good questions, at least someone who don't over-react face to face to the numbers. Thank you

How does one in fact integrate in a place like Sweden? What are the obstacles. And believe you me, there are obstacles being raised in front of newcomers.

For a bit of historical comparison. This one was out together by US Eugenicists in the 1930's. We can assume the statistics involved was impeccable. Their conclusions as to the level of problems certain groups would cause over time were not:
(removed)

 

[Winner]

It's not a question of why, it's a question of if. If you want to draw the conclusion that being a foreigner makes you more likely to commit crimes, then you need to correct for potential confounding factors, one of which is socioeconomic class.

Note the difference between these two statements.

1) A disproportionate number of crimes are commited by foreigners.
2) Being a foreigner means you are more likely to commit a crime.

The data you've presented suggests that #1 may be true, but without eliminating confounding factors you cannot conclude from that that #2 is also true.

Agreed. I never claimed 2). At least not on individual level.

 

[C~G]

Why is it a rant? Because it's true? Or because you don't like it? Or because I am saying it?

In this thread, I focus more on the immigration in general, I implied in the OP that I don't have enough evidence to blame Muslims. I just point at interesting fact that countries whose immigrants are largely Muslims tend to have the crime-immigrant ratio a bit elevated.

If you keep repeating words "muslims" in every paragraph it kind does shine through, yeah.

Exactly, you don't have enough or any evidence at all.

Now, this is rant

Why is it a rant? Because it's true? Or because you don't like it? Or because I am saying it?

Could you stop over-reacting and be objective for a while?

As soon as you do. Which we may have to wait for a while.

In general level people from different parts of the world do have different kind of culture example towards truth-telling and where someone's loyalty lies towards famility etc. These are all factors that must be taken into consideretion. Then again some say that native gypsies are the worst kind of offenders.

Actually you should listen CrazyScientist he might be unto something.

 

[dutchfire]

My Society book has a great paragraph about it, if you want I could translate some of it (but I don't feel like doing that for someone who is biased and doesn't want to change his opinion anyway).

What it comes down to:

There are a lot of phases on the way from a crime to prison:
You need to be arrested, prosecuted, then there is an option for appeal, and there are probably another x phases in between that I have forgotten about.
Because of a lack of capacity, a selection has to be made in each phase.
The police and other officials are often biased (not on purpose) to prosecuting certain crimes and certain people. For example, drugs related criminals are often prosecuted more than economic crimes (fraud) in certain countries. Another thing to consider is that the "lower classes", often with less education, are less able to defend themselves or get good lawyers to defend them. Therefor it's easier to prosecute these people.

The bias in each phase of the system is pretty small, but the bias of the system altogether is a lot higher, because you have to add the bias in all phases.
The bias is always against the same group of people, men, poor, foreign.

Therefor a high percentage of foreign prisoners doesn't mean that foreigners really commit that much more crimes.

 

[Truronian]

Because certain people in certain thread, and certain people in general, claim there is absolutely no correlation between immigration and crime level.

This proves they're wrong.

Rate of immigration =/= number of immigrants.

 

[Winner]

Rate of immigration =/= number of immigrants.

Did I say so?

I used the immigrant share of the population.

 

[Masquerouge]

That is very often the case Winner, you are right. It doesn't have any thing to do with the Religion you keep bashing though because we see the same statistics even in countries where immigrant come from "non islamic countries" and because otherwise you'll find more criminals in Islamic countries than elsewhere, and that is not the case.
Reasons:

1. Immigrants are poorer than the average "native", poor tend to make it to the prison more often than middle class or rich.
2. Immigrants are Younger than the average "native", 80 years old people very rarely commit crimes ;-)
3. Immigrants are Maler than the average "native" ie there are more Males than females, and again humans with balls commit more crimes than humans with boobs.

See now?

If you want "less criminal" immigrants, close the frontier to every one but Rich Widows

Hey Exactly!

Also, correlation is not causation.

 

[Truronian]

Did I say so?

I used the immigrant share of the population.

My mistake, I misread the Sweden thread.

 

[aneeshm]

Winner - I don't have a source for this, but I've heard that though Muslims constitute only 13% of India's population, they make up 70% of people in jail. Their religions keeps them backward, and thus crime increases.

 

[brennan]

Why are immigrants more likely to be criminals?

The same reason the unemployed are...

The same reason those with a poor education are...

They are more likely to be poor.

Duh.

Or is Winner trying to say that if he moved to another country it would turn him into a vicious ne'er do well?