Criticism of Josh Gordon and race relations

[jackelgull]

It's impossible to separate race and class in America.

The Thing people don't seem to realize is that racism has evolved. It's subtler and less effective, but that doesn't mean it should not be combated.

 

[uppi]

I think the problem is that Americans still seem to believe that 'race' is a useful concept. It's not, especially when applied to people with black skin color.

 

[JollyRoger]

Not every black man is as dangerous to the public as Clarence Thomas.

 

[nc-1701]

I'm going to agree with you... But with some big caveats.


First on a personal level it's always the screw ups fault, but on a societal level there can be reason why certain races/classes/genders/whatever produce more screwups.

But your absolutely right, Africans are wildly more successful here than 'African'-Americans. This helps demonstrate that racism isn't the entire problem. That doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, or doesn't hurt, because it does. But ending racism wouldn't be enough to fix things for black Americans at this point. A huge part of the problem is classiscm, and an even bigger part is that racism and classiscm stack really badly.
To make up numbers say racism makes life 5% harder and classiscm makes life 10% harder, instead of both combining to make life 15% harder its more like they multiply and life gets 50% harder. Obviously I invented the numbers, but does the general concept make sense? This is something I've only started to fully understand recently and that I think many people miss.

In America African immigrants tend to arrive with an upper-middle class value system, much like stereotypical Asian immigrants do. It serves them very well, but it isn't shared by poor inner city blacks born in America. There problems are very deep and I don't really know the solution, but yelling about boot straps won't do it. Even ending racism won't do it, though it would help.

The fact is past racism put them where they are and just taking away the racism hasn't/won't fix the communities. When an individual has a chance and blows it, well screw them you shouldn't blow your chances. But we can't extrapolate that to an entire community.

 

[Commodore]

You're doing the lazy thing where you use negative evidence to cast doubt on one explanation and then don't offer one of your own.

I mean if thats all you're doing and you acknowledge that, fine. Would be much better if you offered your own alternative explanation for why non-immigrant black people have low average income. Otherwise racism still looks like a pretty strong explanation.

My alternative explanation is the "old guard" (to use Archbob's terminology) blacks refuse to integrate into mainstream American society because they view doing so as "selling out" to the white man. The fact remains however, that those who refuse to integrate into the status quo in any society will inevitably get left behind.

New African immigrants, on the other hand, are much more willing to integrate into our society and are willing to sacrifice a bit of their cultural and ethnic identity to succeed in their new home.

 

[timtofly]

The fact that he is getting fined is 100% the fault of the person issuing the fine. You can't expect others to stop a compulsive finer until the finer admits his problem.

The problem with vice is that once it makes an addict out of a person, it is no longer enjoyable. There are some people who do not need much to make them feel happy, and they end up being other people's problem.

 

[JollyRoger]

I agree - we should force the finer into treatment for his obvious addiction.

 

[Labtec600]

I don't believe its precisely discrimination keeping African Americans down, but rather a lack of opportunity in the ghetto. I mean, just the fact that they were born in a ghetto is one strike against the "old guard" African Americans. Then the lack of businesses there contributes to lack of opportunity which leads to African Americans in the ghetto joining gangs because those are the only options for money which continues the lack of businesses. i won't mention the police, because police- ghetto relations are a tricky business and I don't want to bad mouth cops, but I feel the police don't help the situation.

It all comes down to whose vagina you come out of.

Kim K? You're all set.
Kate Middleton? You're all set.

Shaquanda down in the inner city ghetto? Too bad.
Shania in the country trailer park? Too bad.

 

[gay_Aleks]

What if I come out of the vagina of a middle-class in the an undisclosed Eastern European country? Do I get "too bad" or "you're set", or maybe I get "meh"?

 

[Berzerker]

a fried egg is your brain on drugs, a scrambled egg is your brain on football

 

[gay_Aleks]

An untouched egg eventually goes bad and starts smelling.

 

[Archbob]

It all comes down to whose vagina you come out of.

Kim K? You're all set.
Kate Middleton? You're all set.

Shaquanda down in the inner city ghetto? Too bad.
Shania in the country trailer park? Too bad.

Logic like this does not always work when you have people like Charles Barkley or LeBron James. But it does work for the majority.

 

[Hygro]

because I doubt anyone can actually tell by looking at a black person whether they are the old guard or the recent immigrants.

I can't believe you all let this comment slide. Your argument that it can't be racism hinges on this. But this is not too different than saying you couldn't spot the European in a crowd of "old guard" white Americans, and you most certainly can.

Aside from the more important bit that racism doesn't even actually work on the basis of appearance.

 

[downtown]

I'll tell you, when I want really insightful commentary on race relations in America, the first place I'm going to turn is a forum made almost entirely of non-black, affluent, suburban computer game enthusiasts.

 

[Senethro]

I'll tell you, when I want really insightful commentary on race relations in America, the first place I'm going to turn is a forum made almost entirely of non-black, affluent, suburban computer game enthusiasts.

Oh really? Well perhaps the real racism is disregarding our views based on our skin colour and economic success? Thats just racebaiting and playing to the politics of envy, sowing division that we cannot afford.

 

[luiz]

I'll tell you, when I want really insightful commentary on race relations in America, the first place I'm going to turn is a forum made almost entirely of non-black, affluent, suburban computer game enthusiasts.

Well if you want a comprehensive picture of race relations in America you should look at all places.

Like the US, this forum is increasingly less white, but not increasingly black, and thus increasingly harder to fit into the White Oppressor vs Black Oppressed narrative that is such a holy cow for so many people in this country.

 

[Domen]

Re - "old guard" vs. "new guard":

The "old guard" are those who let themselves be caught in a net while recent immigrants from Africa were smart enough to avoid a net.

 

[Senethro]

Re - "old guard" vs. "new guard":

The "old guard" are those who let themselves be caught in a net while recent immigrants from Africa were smart enough to avoid a net.

What is this net?

 

[Domen]

What is this net?

 

[Domen]

Such a hypothetical situation - in 1800 one hundred Africans were running away from slave hunters - assuming 50 of them were smart and 50 were dumb - people from which of the two groups were statistically more likely to get caught, those from the smart group or those from the dumb group ???