CTIV-3: Tokugawa by Sea

ChrTh · Mar 18, 2006

Cyrus makes no sense though. He's farther away than Liz, and has a lot less population. Unless we wanted to mount an expedition force to eliminate Cyrus, GW, and Hattie all at once I think that war across the ocean would be a bad idea.

Attacking a nearby large island with plenty of cities, however ...

GreyFox · Mar 18, 2006

Depend on what you want to achieve with war ....
(a) accumulate your pop -- then I agree, we should attack Liz
(b) improve relationship with war ally -- then I disagree, we should declare on the weakest, gain more ally to enjoy the +x mutual struggle benefit. We don't even need to send any troops to really attack Cyrus ...

Kikinit · Mar 19, 2006

I guess it's my turn to have a few. This is my got it.

I will play after the F1 GP this afternoon. That is, in about 3 hours.

Just had a look at the save and Lizzy has railroads so she may have machine guns. We don't really have enough fire power to take her out at the moment. We would need to build a decent military to do her some damage.

Lizzy and Monty are also capable of researching rocketry and flight. I bet they will be doing this next and starting their spaceships. I will therefore not declare on anyone, unless some situation presents itself and 1. continue to build our relationship with JC, Alex, HC & Monte, 2. Build our military and 3. Research spaceship techs. Not going to get much more done in 10 turns.

Kikinit · Mar 19, 2006

Finished my turns.. report up soon.

Didn't go to war with anyone as I don't see us having enough defense.

Kikinit · Mar 19, 2006

On starting, I noticed that we had -5 unhappy faces from "We want Emancipation" in all our big cities and this was making some of them lose production and others were very close to it, so I revolted to Emancipation straight away.

During these turns, I basically did a lot of railroading and a little bit of trying to convince people to come over to our side. I thought about giving biology to Lizzy to help her grow a bit faster and overtake JC as she is 5 votes lower still. Decided against it will hurt relations with the others too much.

I also looked into going into defensive pacts during my turns to get the diplomatic boost but nobody, not even HC (+10), would agree to it. How much do they have to love you to get into one of these.

Next up could choose to go to state property if they think that money is more important than any other civics might be at this point in the game.

I did manage to build a few marines here and there but it will be difficult to get them all together for an attack as we are scattered on so many islands. Once airports come in we will be able to move people around a bit easier.

Biology and Rocketry came in during my turns and I chose Flight next. It hasn't got any turns in it so can be changed if necessary.

On the diplomatic front, nothing much changed or so I thought!! Our diplomatic relations are: Lizzy +2, Monte +3, JC +6, Alex +5, GW 0, HC +5, Hatty -1 and Cyrus -8. Obviously I did something to offend HC as he was +10 before. Yep.. checked the pics in Greyfox's post and we lost the +5 from you have wisely chosen your civics. We also lost the +3 from the same thing with Alex. :blush:

. Oh crap this diplomatic game is frustrating.

(1) 1866AD - A great scientist was born and I made an academy in Edo as I couldn't see a better use for him.
(2) 1867AD - Biology came in and I went for Rocketry next to allow us to start our space program. I also went for a diplomatic victory again. Not that we really have any chance of it.
(3) 1868AD - Only HC voted for us again so we lost. We got 386 out of 633 needed. Lizzy has 120 votes and JC has 125 now. I also went into a trade with each of our friends, giving them hit singles for whatever little gold they had.
(4) 1869AD - Great artist in Timbuktu now. No use for him so I put him to sleep. Need 3 more great people to start a GA.
(5) 1870AD - Changed to 90% research to spend some of the excess cash.
HC came along asking us to cancel deals with the vile American. I have no love for Americans

so I agree to this.
(6) 1871AD - The UN vote came up again and this time I decided to go for Universal Sufferage. Not sure if it will affect our relations at all, but now that we are under Emancipation (no slavery), we need some way to rush things.
(7) 1872AD - Rocketry came in and I chose communism next as I want some spies to see what our adversaries are up to and also for the option to go to state property. Universal Sufferage just won by a bee's gonad. Got 538 votes and required 528. Lizzy now has 121 votes and JC has 126. This is a great way to avoid the revolution! We go into universal sufferage without one when it's voted in the UN.
(8) 1873AD - Eiffel Tower's done. Free radio towers in all cities.
IBT - Monte declared on Hatty again. If he asks us to help, we will have to say yes so as not to hurt relations.
(9) 1874AD - :beer:

IBT - Hatty came asking us to cancel all our deals with the Aztec. The opposite of what we wanted, so I say no. The vote for sec-gen came in again and of course, I voted for us.
(10) 1875AD - more :beer:

. Communism came in and I think I chose flight next so we can build airports to help the logistics if we decide to go to war.

List of things to build. Need to work out where to build all these - Apollo program, West point, Pentagon and Scotland Yard. Just a short list

.

Here's the save. http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/CTIV-3_AD-1875.Civ4SavedGame

Turn log if anyone's interested.

Spoiler :

ChrTh · Mar 19, 2006

I know this was back on page 17, but ...

ChrTh said:
A couple more thoughts:

For UN Resolutions, do not do a government such as Representation or Universal Sufferage; we're getting some nice bonuses from Hereditary Rule. Also, Free Religion is not our friend at this point in the game. Free Markets might be good, though.

So I think we're hosed. Without Hereditary Rule I don't think we'll be able to get Alex or HC back to +10 by the end of the game.

I think diplomacy is just impossible when you start as a conquest Civ

I'll probably play tonight (er, in about 11 hours). Space looks like our only option at this point.

Kikinit · Mar 19, 2006

Woops.

I was just getting so frustrated at the lack of production and once I had changed to emancipation, taking away slavery as an option, and with all the money in the bank, I just couldn't take it anymore. Cracked under the pressure. :crazyeye:

ChrTh · Mar 19, 2006

This is a tentative "got it" ... I might be interrupted from playing, though, by work; if that's the case, I'll release it.

ChrTh · Mar 19, 2006

Turn 0 -- 1875 AD

If we're going to go for Space, we should go all out. Diplomacy is lost to us at this point, and Conquest/Domination would be a very strong burden on our times and sanity. With that in mind, I'll be playing for space.

I switch to Satellites research. Due in 5.

We have all this cash; let's spend it to boost Production.

I rush Coal Plant in Kyoto for less than 200.

I rush Statue of Liberty in Moscow for less than 1800 (will use extra specialist to help complete Three Gorges Dam faster).

I rush Coal Plant in Nagoya. I rush Grocer is Osaka. We still have 1600 gold.

We have 8 good production cities that we can use for builds for Spaceship Parts/Projects/Wonders. We'll use the other cities for military.

Turn 1 -- 1876 AD

Kyoto: Coal Plant > Pentagon
Osaka: Grocer > Scotland Yard
Tokyo: Infantry > Coal Plant
Rostov: Marine > Transport
Nagoya: Coal Plant > West Point (nice central location for wars to our west and south)
Moscow: Statue of Liberty > Coal Plant
Novgorod: Factory > Coal Plant

We're the Sec-Gen.

Turn 2 -- 1877 AD

Yakutsk: Marine > Kremlin

:coffee:

Turn 3 -- 1878 AD

Cyrus wants Open Borders. Nope.

Moscow: Coal Plant > Apollo Program

Turn 4 -- 1879 AD

St. Pete's: SAM Infantry > Drydock
Yokohama: Marine > Barracks :smoke:

Who build a Marine without Barracks?

UN Vote time. There are only 3 Civs left with a state religion. It's time for Free Religion to undercut any attempts to use Vassalage/Theocracy to build superpower troops.

Turn 5 -- 1880 AD

HC wants us to trade World Maps right after I get Satellites. :lol:

No.

Satellites are in, start Computers with a goal towards the Space Elevator.

Rostov: Transport > Tank
Vladivostok: Coal Plant > Bank

Free Religion succeeds! Dangit, forgot to check the vote totals. :wallbash:

I drop Science to 70% for a little while. I want to rush The Kremlin, which will make it cheaper to rush everything else (until Fiber Optics).

Turn 6 -- 1881 AD

Monty wants us to declare war on Hattie. Forget it.

Novgorod: Coal Plant > Tank
Djenne: Factory > Coal Plant

Turn 7 -- 1882 AD

Smolensk: Factory > Coal Plant
Walata: Granary > Barracks
Yokohama: Barracks > Factory

:coffee:

Turn 8 -- 1883 AD

Hattie wants us to declare war on Monty. Forget it.

St. Pete's: Drydock > Battleship

Vote's up. Go for Diplo. Still us vs JC

Kremlin is rushed. Science to 60% to net us 500gpt, Computers still due in 5.

Turn 9 -- 1884 AD

Yakutsk: Kremlin > Bank

Ok, we're the only ones who voted for us. HC has switched his allegiance to JC! JC is 6 pop ahead of Liz, Monty is falling back.

Turn 10 -- 1885 AD

Yekaterinburg: Coal Plant > Drydock
Novgorod: Tank > Tank

Tank sent to St. Pete's.

Ok, well, not all that much happened. We can rush a lot faster now; I realize that I've been waiting on 3 Gorges while building Coal Plants at the same time, so 3 Gorges might not be as useful in the end. We can rush Pentagon next turn, and that's probably a good idea for opponent-denial plus extra unit experience. Or we could rush West Point/Hollywood/Scotland Yard pretty much all at once.

Apollo Program due in 11. We do want to get the Space Elevator, don't forget. Moscow is by far our fastest producer at this point.

Here's the Save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/CTIV-3_AD-1885.Civ4SavedGame

Kikinit · Mar 19, 2006

Nice progress there ChrTh. I had thought that you couldn't rush the Kremlin. Glad to see that I was wrong.

My goals for my next turnset will be no more :smoke:

'in civic's changes. My goals in joining this SG were to learn and I am doing that, that's for sure.

By the way, I think Greyfox is on a skip for about a week so it may be just us. And I notice that you will be gone for a week after that. I will try and get 10 in tonight to help us see if we can finish this off.

ChrTh · Mar 19, 2006

Anything that's not a project can be rushed.

If Jeff1787's still around, he could grab it too. oldbustedjorn too. :groucho:

Kikinit · Mar 19, 2006

ChrTh said:
Ok, well, not all that much happened. We can rush a lot faster now; I realize that I've been waiting on 3 Gorges while building Coal Plants at the same time, so 3 Gorges might not be as useful in the end.

I was building coal plants as the 3 gorges dam only provides power to the cities on the same continent, thus cities on other continents will need their own power. I think there might have been a city or 2 on the same continent that are also building coal plants. This was when the 3 gorges dam was still going to take 40+ turns and I thought that the hammers gained by power would be worth it. Once the 3 gorges dam comes in, the unhealthiness of the coal plant goes away. At least that's my understanding.

ChrTh said:
We can rush Pentagon next turn, and that's probably a good idea for opponent-denial plus extra unit experience. Or we could rush West Point/Hollywood/Scotland Yard pretty much all at once.

Ok. I will see if I can achieve some of that.

ChrTh said:
Apollo Program due in 11. We do want to get the Space Elevator, don't forget. Moscow is by far our fastest producer at this point.

Noted. Computers in 5 and then Robotics. Doubt that we will finish both in 10 turns.

ChrTh · Mar 19, 2006

Just looked at the save: switch Osaka to a Hydro Plant.

GreyFox · Mar 20, 2006

I can still play during this week, just not as frequently though, so if any of you can play just go ahead.

I was wondering why the sudden change of plan not to pursue Diplomacy? Monty did approach us for help in his war against Hatty (which I predicted). Why did we incur yet another "you refuse to give us help in war" penalty?

-

ChrTh · Mar 20, 2006

Three reasons on Diplo:

1. The lose of Hereditary Rule pretty much killed our chances of winning in a reasonable amount of time. It may still happen, but I suspect we'll get to space first

2. Monty sucks. He causes too many wars. We're better off just dumping him and hoping Liz passes JC in pop. Maybe we should cancel all the Monty trades and try to get back on Hattie's good side? JC+Alex+Hattie+HC would get us a diplo victory.

3. In all honesty, I screwed up way back when we decided to go for diplo but more or less did it by the seat of our pants. We should've paused, figured out all the relationships, and then come up with a plan. We didn't, and it ended up being our undoing. I've actually been tempted to go back to an old save and see what could be done to get us a diplo victory.

Kikinit · Mar 20, 2006

GreyFox said:
I can still play during this week, just not as frequently though, so if any of you can play just go ahead.

That's good to hear.

GreyFox said:
I was wondering why the sudden change of plan not to pursue Diplomacy? Monty did approach us for help in his war against Hatty (which I predicted). Why did we incur yet another "you refuse to give us help in war" penalty?

We were struggling to get anywhere and I chose Univ Sufferage at the UN election effectively killing the +5 & +3 modifiers we were enjoying with HC & Alex respectively.

To get them back will, as ChrTh noted, probably take us longer than building a spaceship would. If it is possible at all.

ChrTh · Mar 21, 2006

Anyone want to grab it? I can't yet

Kikinit · Mar 21, 2006

ChrTh said:
Anyone want to grab it? I can't yet

I will try and get it tonight for at least 5 turns if my son will give me that much spare time. (12 hours from now)

Edit: Got it. I will play some turns now.

Kikinit · Mar 22, 2006

Ok.. played 10 turns in the end, but after taking about 30 minutes to do my first two turns due to trying to write down all the buildings and stuff, I just gave up in the end and am going to write over the log. Otherwise it will just take too long as we are just so damned big. It will make it a bit dry, sorry about that.

I started by buying a whole lot of stuff as now that the Kremlin is finished, it's just so cheap.

I also managed to start a number of laboratories in our high production cities to get ready for building a spaceship.

Computers came in and Robotics was started.

There were also a few approaches for open borders from a few of the others but I generally said no to most of them as wasn't sure of the diplomatic effects.

What was this? You been :smoke:

too much.

I think that's the first time I've seen a fort actually built.

I also settled a city on the last shot near Yakutsk as it had clams and seemed like it would grow to a reasonable size.

I hired an artist which is earning 4 :culture:

per turn and should pop the borders pretty fast. Once this happens, he should be fired to let the city grow. I also queued up a workboat in nearby Yakutsk which will be finished in about 2 turns and can sail down about the time the borders pop.

(0) Turn 495 (1885 AD)
Kagoshima grows: 11
Kagoshima finishes: Coal Plant for 96 :gold:

Nara finishes: Library for 63g
Nagoya finishes: West Point for 483g
Smolensk finishes: Coal Plant for 132g
Awdaghost finishes: Granary for 9g
Izumo finishes: Factory for 144g
Nagasaki finishes: Courthouse
Pentagon is due in 22 (Kyoto).
Scotland Yard is due in 13 (Osaka)
Apollo Program is due in 11 (Moscow)
Three Gorges Dam is due in 24 (Yaroslavl')
Hollywood is due in 14 (Edo)

(1) Turn 496 (1886 AD)
Kagoshima begins: Barracks
Nara begins: Harbor
Nagoya begins: Tank
Smolensk begins: Granary
Awdaghost begins: Courthouse
Izumo begins: Barracks
Nagasaki begins: Factory
Osaka finishes: Scotland Yard for 561 :gold:

Rostov finishes: Tank
Vladivostok finishes: Bank
Smolensk grows: 11
Djenne grows: 13
Awlil finishes: Hydro Plant for :gold:

Awdaghost grows: 7

IBT: Washington came asking for open borders. I politely refused him.

(2) Turn 497 (1887 AD)
Osaka begins: Hydro Plant
Rostov begins: Submarine <- To take spies to countries without open borders.
Vladivostok begins: Tank
Awlil begins: Library
Tech learned: Computers
Osaka grows: 18
Izumo finishes: Barracks

(3) Turn 498 (1888 AD)
Yakutsk begins: Settler
Research begun: Robotics for space elevator.
Izumo begins: Library
Kagoshima finishes: Barracks
Yekaterinburg finishes: Drydock
Novgorod finishes: Tank
Nagasaki grows: 7

(4) Turn 499 (1889 AD)
Kagoshima begins: University
Yekaterinburg begins: Observatory
Novgorod begins: Laboratory
Kyoto finishes: The Pentagon
Osaka finishes: Hydro Plant
Tokyo finishes: Coal Plant
Nagoya grows: 16
Yakutsk finishes: Bank
Novgorod grows: 16
Awdaghost finishes: Courthouse

IBT: Hatty asks to swap world maps, but I cannot see any advantage in it for us and she won't give us anything for it, so I say no.

(5) Turn 500 (1890 AD)
Kyoto begins: Laboratory
Osaka begins: Spy
Tokyo begins: SAM Infantry
Awdaghost begins: Observatory
Rostov finishes: Submarine
St. Petersburg finishes: Battleship
Smolensk finishes: Granary
Walata finishes: Barracks
Awlil finishes: Library
Yokohama's borders expand

(6) Turn 501 (1891 AD)
Rostov begins: Submarine
St. Petersburg begins: Laboratory
Smolensk begins: Barracks
Walata begins: Factory
Awlil begins: Observatory
Osaka finishes: Spy
Nagoya finishes: Tank
Moscow grows: 18
Vladivostok finishes: Tank
Timbuktu finishes: Factory
Yokohama grows: 13

IBT: Sec-Gen vote comes up and I of course select usl Lizzy and Hatty both came asking for OB this turn and I refused both of them. Not sure if we want to consider it in the future to allow our cities to trade with them. We don't care so much about the diplomatic factors now right? Anyway, I wasn't sure so I said no.

(7) Turn 502 (1892 AD)
Osaka begins: Spy
Nagoya begins: Aqueduct
Vladivostok begins: Aqueduct
Yakutsk finishes: Settler
Vladivostok's borders expand
Djenne finishes: Coal Plant
Izumo finishes: Library
The spy was loaded onto a submarine and sent in the general direction of England, our biggest foe at the moment.

(8) Turn 503 (1893 AD)
Yakutsk begins: Aqueduct
Djenne begins: Observatory
Izumo begins: Observatory
Osaka finishes: Spy
Yaroslavl' finishes: The Three Gorges Dam rushed for about 1800 :gold:

Smolensk finishes: Barracks
Walata grows: 8

IBT: Hatty made peace with Monty.

(9) Turn 504 (1894 AD)
Osaka begins: Laboratory
Yaroslavl' begins: Laboratory
Smolensk begins: Observatory
Edo grows: 20
Rostov grows: 15
Rostov finishes: Submarine
Novgorod finishes: Laboratory
Timbuktu finishes: Barracks
Awlil grows: 12
Tadmekka grows: 7

(10) Turn 505 (1895 AD)
Shimonoseki founded
Rostov begins: Aqueduct
Novgorod begins: Tank
Timbuktu begins: Coal Plant
Shimonoseki begins: Lighthouse
Yakutsk begins: Work Boat

The save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/CTIV-3_AD-1895.Civ4SavedGame

ChrTh · Mar 22, 2006

What was this? You been too much.

The city ruins were disturbing my aesthetic. I thought a nice fort to repel any attacks would be nice :groucho:

(I had also never built one)

CTIV-3: Tokugawa by Sea

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Make it so ...

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Make it so ...

Happy Yule!

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Happy Yule!

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