CTIV-5: Peacenik Re-education Camp

[ruff_hi]

Another 5 turns down ...

The best news is that we now have a foot hold on the other continent.

edit: you will notice that we cannot actually attach Japan due to the French culture :hmmn:

The eagle eyed in the crowd will notice that we are not at war with France anymore. We settled that issue in the first round - I asked him what the price of peace was and he offered me the following (does this count as 'trading' - if so, sorry) ...

We managed to transport some troops (thx to the previous player) over and captured Izumo fairly easily. I think we only a suicide cannon and a Grenadier. The issue is that Tommy now has infantry and Artillery. This war will be up hill and into the wind. Here is the situation before the start of battle ...

The other problem is that our ships are SSSSLLLLOOOWWWW. Check this out ...

We can get along at 4 tiles per round and Tommy can run us down with destroyers at 9 tiles per turn. I tried to sneak some ships past him, but he caught me (twice).

Finally, I am not even going to mention our finances ... oops, just did. Also, sorry if I selected a two tech research path - I had some code errors in my python tech selector and it wasn't showing up on the screen.

Spoiler turnlog :

Turn 375 (1965 AD)
Galleon promoted: Combat I
Galleon promoted: Combat I
Frigate promoted: Combat I
Ruff_Hi: Peace with Nappy (is that trading?)
Zion finishes: Rifleman
Karakorum finishes: Grenadier
Beijing grows: 9
Ning-hsia finishes: Cavalry
Teotihuacan grows: 12
Frigate loses to: Japanese Destroyer (24.00/30)

Turn 376 (1966 AD)
Zion begins: Cannon
Karakorum begins: Grenadier
Ning-hsia begins: Cavalry
Galleon promoted: Combat I
Zion grows: 15
Shanghai finishes: Cavalry
Beijing finishes: Galleon
Mycenae finishes: Galleon
Teotihuacan finishes: Cannon
Shimonoseki finishes: Courthouse
Old Sarai finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 377 (1967 AD)
Shanghai begins: Cannon
Beijing begins: Cannon
Mycenae begins: Galleon
Teotihuacan begins: Cannon
Shimonoseki begins: Galleon
Old Sarai begins: Galleon
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
Grenadier promoted: Combat II
Cadarewyn Larywin (Galleon) promoted: Combat I
Galleon promoted: Combat I
Grenadier promoted: Combat II
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
Grenadier promoted: Medic I
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
Grenadier promoted: Combat II
Grenadier promoted: Combat II
Grenadier promoted: Pinch
Tech learned: Scientific Method
Beshbalik finishes: Rifleman
Berlin grows: 16
Berlin finishes: Cavalry
Ning-hsia finishes: Cavalry
Mycenae grows: 10
Alemanni grows: 6
Alemanni finishes: Forge
Galleon loses to: Japanese Destroyer (25.50/30)
Grenadier defeats (12.00/12): Japanese Catapult
Grenadier defeats (12.00/12): Japanese Catapult

Turn 378 (1968 AD)
Research begun: Steam Power
Research begun: Railroad
Research begun: Steam Power
Research begun: Railroad
Research begun: Biology
Research begun: Democracy
Research begun: Steam Power
Research begun: Railroad

no - this is not indecision about the research path - this is because I wasn't getting any screen response from my selections - python error in my mod pack.

Beshbalik begins: Galleon
Berlin begins: Cavalry
Ning-hsia begins: Cavalry
Alemanni begins: Grenadier
Astiamar Drewin (Galleon) promoted: Combat I
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
Cannon promoted: City Raider I
Cannon promoted: City Raider II
Cannon loses to: Japanese Infantry (14.40/20)
Cannon defeats (5.52/12): Japanese Infantry
Grenadier loses to: Japanese SAM Infantry (9.72/18)
Grenadier defeats (5.88/12): Japanese Longbowman
Grenadier defeats (1.44/12): Japanese SAM Infantry
Islam has spread: Izumo
Buddhism has spread: Izumo
Captured Izumo (Tokugawa)
Grenadier defeats (10.20/12): Barbarian Rifleman
Captured Chinook (Barbarian)
Razed Chinook
Chinook lost
Zion finishes: Cannon
Beshbalik grows: 9
Tenochtitlan finishes: Rifleman
Golden Age ends
Grenadier loses to: Japanese Artillery (11.88/18)
Frigate loses to: Japanese Destroyer (21.60/30)
Frigate loses to: Japanese Frigate (0.80/8)
Cannon loses to: Japanese Infantry (20.00/20)

Turn 379 (1969 AD)
Zion begins: Rifleman
Tenochtitlan begins: Rifleman
Cannon promoted: Combat I
Ruff_Hi: sneak away from Beijing didn't work
Shanghai finishes: Cannon
Vandal finishes: Cannon
Turfan finishes: Cavalry
Ning-hsia finishes: Cavalry
Mycenae finishes: Galleon
Teotihuacan finishes: Cannon
Shimonoseki grows: 7
Toulouse's borders expand
Judaism has spread: Old Sarai

Turn 380 (1970 AD)
Shanghai begins: Cavalry
Vandal begins: Cavalry
Turfan begins: Cavalry
Ning-hsia begins: Cavalry
Mycenae begins: Galleon
Teotihuacan begins: Cannon

 

[ChrTh]

Scowler, you're up!

 

[Scowler]

Um....

Well, I guess I got this, for all the good it will do us...

 

[ChrTh]

Um....

Well, I guess I got this, for all the good it will do us...

I believe in you!

 

[Scowler]

Turn 0 (1970 AD)
Turning science down to 60% slows the financial plunge, but anything below that will mean sacrificing a couple of turns of research time and we can't afford that either.

IBT:

While defending, Grenadier loses to: Japanese Artillery (1.80/18)
While defending, Grenadier defeats (6.24/12): Japanese Cannon
While defending, Musketman loses to: Japanese Artillery (18.00/18)
While defending, Grenadier loses to: Japanese Cavalry (15.00/15)
While defending, Grenadier loses to: Japanese Cavalry (12.60/15)
While defending, Cannon loses to: Japanese Cavalry (15.00/15)
Izumo lost

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say about that little fiasco. If Izumo can be re-taken so easily I don't see how we can possibly hold any of Toku's other cities - assuming, of course, that we are actually able to capture them in the first place. He has SAM infantry and artillery running around so not only does he have superior numbers, but he also has technological superiority.

To be honest, I don't think it's worth even trying to send more troops to the other continent now, but for the sake of the SG I decide to fill up those galleons on the east coast and try my luck. There don't seem to be any destroyers in the vicinity so perhaps we can slip through. There's no chance of any such forays taking place from the west coast with at least one destroyer visibly on the prowl.

Turn 1 (1971 AD)
Workers work, and new units are sent to rally points.

IBT:
Vandal grows: 14
Vandal's borders expand
Ning-hsia finishes: Cavalry
Toulouse finishes: Courthouse

Turn 2 (1972 AD)
Ning-hsia begins: Cavalry
Toulouse begins: Lighthouse

IBT:
Beijing grows: 10
Turfan grows: 11
Berlin finishes: Cavalry
Alemanni finishes: Grenadier
Old Sarai grows: 2

Turn 3 (1973 AD)
Berlin begins: Rifleman
Alemanni begins: Grenadier

IBT:
Zion finishes: Rifleman
Karakorum finishes: Grenadier
Mycenae finishes: Galleon

Turn 4 (1974 AD)
The galleons arrive at Izumo. Somehow I don't think we will be taking this city in the near future:

We must either turn back or find another place to land. Again, we can't afford to hang around in case the Japanese fleet arrives so the troops land at a lumbermill SW of Nagoya. The city has several defenders, including artillery, but some of these are no more advanced than longbows. [I did take a screenshot, but for some reason it didn't come out]

Zion begins: Rifleman
Karakorum begins: Rifleman
Mycenae begins: Galleon

IBT:
Karakorum grows: 11
Turfan's borders expand
Ning-hsia finishes: Cavalry
Teotihuacan finishes: Cannon
Tenochtitlan finishes: Rifleman
Shimonoseki finishes: Galleon

While defending, Rifleman defeats (2.10/14): Japanese Artillery
While defending, Rifleman loses to: Japanese Artillery (7.74/18)
While defending, Grenadier loses to: Japanese SAM Infantry (15.12/18)
While defending, Grenadier loses to: Japanese Cavalry (15.00/15)
While defending, Cavalry loses to: Japanese Cavalry (7.35/15)
While defending, Cavalry loses to: Japanese Cavalry (12.45/15)
While defending, Rifleman loses to: Japanese Cavalry (15.00/15)
While defending, Cannon loses to: Japanese Cavalry (15.00/15)
While defending, Cannon loses to: Japanese Cavalry (15.00/15)
While defending, Cannon loses to: Japanese Cavalry (15.00/15)

Well, this was pretty much what I expected. Toku already has a rail network in place so it was very easy for him to bring in plenty more units from elsewhere and swat our stack. I can't imagine us doing any better in the future.

Turn 5 (1975 AD)
Ning-hsia begins: Cavalry
Teotihuacan begins: Cannon
Tenochtitlan begins: Cavalry
Shimonoseki begins: Galleon

At this point I have to ask: is it really worth continuing with this game? I don't think we have the slightest chance of winning even a score victory. I doubt we can gain another toe-hold on the Japanese continent now (I'd love to be proved wrong, of course), which means that we are just going to be twiddling our thumbs and hitting "turn" until time runs out or Toku launches a full-scale assault on our homeland. Even though the power graph shows we are catching up with Toku his forces are more advanced than ours, and Nappy's army is nearly twice the size of Toku's:

Sorry, ChrTh, but it looks like your faith in me was misplaced...

SOS

 

[ChrTh]

I don't know, gang. I hate to abandon a game, but I think Scowler's right: we can't win the game as it currently stands. So, we have a choice here:

1) Keep playing, odds be damned!
2) Keep playing, but we eliminate the variant rules and play it however we want the remainder of the way (so we can make peace and we can trade)
or
3) Surrender Dorothy

I'd like to hear from the 3 other players before I put in my vote.

 

[ruff_hi]

I'm not sure who Dorothy is, but my thinking is that option 1) is fairly pointless however, I don't just want to drop it. This brings me back to ... hmm, I don't know.

Thoughts: The whole point of this game is for us peaceniks to learn to fight. The current situation is that we are our-gunned tech wise. We will surely find ourselves in this situation in other games and we have to learn how to handle this situation.

My Conclusions: Variant rules (ie always war) should be dropped. However, aim of world unification should not be. We have to do what we can to catch up tech wize (just how behind are we) so we should relax the trading options (this will prob not help as they prob hate us for wars). Would you consider us catching (or almost catching up) up tech wize via WB, say via gifting gold so we can run at 100% research?

ChThr - you also wanted us to learn to fight on the high seas. At the moment, it isn't really a fight - we just cross our fingers and hope. If we are on a tech level (or just below), then we can at least learn some nautical tactics.

 

[ChrTh]

You don't know Dorothy? Or her little dog too?

I wanted us to be forced to have to do an ocean crossing because that's harder than just sweeping across the continent. However, the two continents are close enough that once we got a solid foothold, transports could get across the water in one turn, so barring a complete tile blockade (which I've never seen the AI do--well, maybe a couple times back on Civ I) all we get to do is experience the fun of slow troop movement.

I need to look at the save before I can see what we can do to improve our situation (via WB or Variant Rule removal). I'll do that tonight.

 

[ChrTh]

The New Save?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/CTIV-5_AD-19751.Civ4SavedGame

Ok, this is what I did:
Via WB, I forced peace with Tokugawa (tried normal negotiation but he wouldn't budge for anything less than a city).

In order to even the tech situation, I gave EVERYBODY "All Industrial Techs". So we're now all in the Modern Age, or will be once we research a Modern Age tech. This does the following:

1) It evens the board tech-wise, however
2) Since Nappy and Toku were already advanced, they have plenty of advanced soldiers whereas we have none. I didn't give us any extra cash because I didn't want us to have the ability to mass upgrade.
3) It opens up all the Civics choices

Outside of WB, I cancelled the Peace Deal with Napoleon since it benefitted us more than him. I then gifted and traded an item to both.

So this is where we stand. Let me know what y'all think about this setup. Also, any thoughts on Civics? I'll tell you one thing: we can't give up Hereditary Rule because it's giving us +6 with Toku.

 

[pling]

Hmm. Of the original 3 options - 1) seems a bit pointless, and aggravating, just waiting to lose and 3) would seem a shame. So 2 it is If we go with the 'new save' are we going to stick with the rest of the variant rules, well, except always war - ie try & win by conquest? Otherwise it'd seem a bit ... like stacking the deck too much? I dunno, we maybe don't have enough turns left to do that from where we are, anyway - we'd need to build up troops then deploy ...

I dunno - it's always a shame to abandon a game, so I'm happy to go along with what everyone else wants to do to save it

 

[SpriteSODA]

Lurker's comment: whats your pop. precentage of the world? I'd say break the slavary variant and develop and build new cities till you get to 60% and diplo victory.

 

[ChrTh]

Lurker's comment: whats your pop. precentage of the world? I'd say break the slavary variant and develop and build new cities till you get to 60% and diplo victory.

I don't think there's any way to get to 60% in 75 years. Heck, I don't think there's time for us to get the UN either (unless one of the other Civs is nice enough to build it for us).

I think in the end we want to do this thing by force

 

[SpriteSODA]

So flood him with HUGE army

 

[ChrTh]

ruff_hi and scowler, what do you think?

 

[ruff_hi]

Outside of WB, I cancelled the Peace Deal with Napoleon since it benefitted us more than him. I then gifted and traded an item to both.

I'm fine with what you did. I am not sure why you gifted and traded - care to elaborate on that?

 

[ChrTh]

I'm fine with what you did. I am not sure why you gifted and traded - care to elaborate on that?

Both of them are pretty angry. While I suspect we'll want to start war again pretty quickly, I'd prefer we declare, not them. This will (hopefully) help.

...and gets us some cash.

 

[ChrTh]

Ok, I'm going to play from the "modernized" save. I'll play 10 turns ... we'll probably want to declare war shortly thereafter because we'll only have 65 turns left.

My focus is going to be on cash for upgrading existing troops and getting the continent railed.

 

[ChrTh]

Turn 0 -- 1975 AD

Wow, the world looks a lot different

Besides the changes I've made, I'm switching pretty much every city to a worker so we can rail. Science is at 50% to earn Drama in 1 turn.

I don't change Civics yet, I want to get Railin'. Of course, we don't have any coal in our borders, so I whip a Settler out of Mycenae.

Turn 1 -- 1976 AD

Drama comes in. I start Flight, but I drop science to 0.

Broadway has been built in a faraway land.

I move most troops to Toulose ... even though it's further from the enemies, it gives a better flexibility on who we want to attack first.

Turn 2 -- 1977 AD

Ning-hsia: Worker > Cavalry

I build New Sarai.

Turn 3 -- 1978 AD

Zion: Worker > Infantry
Shanghai: Worker > Cavalry
Turfan: Worker > Cavalry
Berlin: Worker > Infantry
Leonardo da Vinci has been born in Berlin!
Teot: Worker > Arty

I use daVinci to contribute to The Pentagon. Still will take 17 turns, though. But I'm railing it's mines to hopefully build it faster.

Turn 4 -- 1979 AD

Turfan: Cavalry > Worker
Ning-hsia: Cavalry > Worker
Beijing: Worker > Arty
Vandal: Worker > Cavalry
Mycenae: Worker > Galleon
Alemanni: Worker > Machine Gun
Toulouse: Worker > Lighthouse

Turn 5 -- 1980 AD

Shanghai: Cavalry > Marine
Turfan: Worker > Forge
Shimonoseki: Worker > Transport

Oil is now in.

Turn 6 -- 1981 AD

Ning-hsia: Worker > Tank

WHAT?!? (damn didn't get the screenshot) NAPOLEON DECLARED WAR ON TOKUGAWA!!!!!

(I assure you, I didn't do anything in WB to cause this to happen)



Turn 7 -- 1982 AD

Toulouse: Lighthouse > Barracks

Turn 8 -- 1983 AD

Zion: Infantry > Infantry
Tenoc: Cavalry > Factory

Turn 9 -- 1984 AD

Beshablik: Transport > Forge
Beijing: Artillery > Factory
Vandal: Cavalry > Factory
Teot: Artillery > Factory
Alemanni: Machine Gun > Factory
New Sarai: Theatre > Forge

Turn 10 -- 1985 AD
Ning-Hsia: Tank > Factory
Toulouse: Barracks > Factory


Ok, obviously mostly builder turns. We should probably now switch Civics (State Property and Universal Sufferage, maybe?) as well as turn science back on. I didn't spend any money to upgrade troops since I wanted to leave it to the next player (who will actually be fighting) which troops he wants to upgrade.

In terms of Power, we've passed Tokugawa. Napoleon is still wicked ahead, but he's obviously taken losses fighting Toku.

We might want to selectively before revolting, just to get that last little bite out of slavery ... Pentagon is due in 9, would be nice to get that (right now it would set us back about 2100 gold after revolting)

Here's the Save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/CTIV-5_AD-1985.Civ4SavedGame

Pling is up, I believe Ruff Hi is on deck.

 

[pling]

You'd've thought given our little hiatus that the two SGs I'm in would've got out of sync & I wouldn't be up in both simultaneously ... but, no. Came downstairs this morning, checked my email & there I am, up in both I got the other email first so I'll be playing this tomorrow or Friday

 

[pling]

Sorry guys, I'm going to have to take a skip Unanticipated in-law visit, so I'll not have time to play before Monday at the earliest.