CTR1 -- Jump Without Looking (the Deity Virgin Sacrifice)

You have a very interesting situation here, so I thought that you might be able to use some extra commentary. :)

1. Persia is definitely your biggest long term rival (they have well developed infrastructure with good land and large cities), and if you attempt to go for domination it will likely be a race between whether you can get enough territory and population before they win by culture or space ship. If you go for a space race, Persia will be a tough competitor who might even be able to research at 4 turns per tech once they build their cheap research labs (in this case you might have to keep up by stealing tech or getting a world alliance against Persia to slow them down).

2. Your trading reputation is in danger with England. Notice that England has no harbors of its own, so you are trading them luxuries through Iroquois harbors. Since England and Iroquois are at war, there is a reasonable possibility that all roads between the two civs will be cut, breaking your deals with England. There isn't much you can do about this until the current deals expire, but you should be prepared to pay lump sum for tech in the future.

3. Some logistics for a potential invasion of England: Your current ship building capacity is about 1 galleon every 3 turns and you are short of cash, so it will be at least 20 turns before you have the boats to start a significant invasion. By shuffling defenders from your central cities to replace samurai at the borders with India, you can free up about 15-20 samurai for offensive purposes. This will leave your interior undefended and vulnerable to an Indian sneak attack, but allow more troops to be deployed in a shorter time period.

An invasion along with a ROP with the Iroquois would allow a slightly earlier attack since you could shuffle troops over to Iroquois territory with fewer galleons, but it would still be about 15 turns before the deals with England end and you can start a limited offensive. Using Iroquois land as a base is the safer option (as opposed to landing in English territory), at the cost of potentially facing stronger English cities at the front lines.

Of course, in either case there is no guarantee that the English and Iroquois will still be at war in 15-25 turns, and facing England alone would result in far greater losses. Given their current territory, England can probably produce 2 cavalry per turn, so your expected losses would be about 3 cavalry per turn in offensive and defensive operations. An invasion force of 24 cavalry could therefore be expected to last 8 turns before it is lost to attrition (i.e. a short war would be advisable, and reinforcements would be vital).

4. Japanese culture is quite low. England and India both have about 5x your total culture according to the histograph, so resistance and flips could be problematic when conquering either civ. A flip of a key cities while invading England could be especially devestating, and might wipe out a large portion of your forces (so keep most units outside of dangerous cities). The good news is that with the recently acquired territory, your national culture is beginning to improve compared to the other civs.
 
Zwingli: Thanks very much for taking the time to comment on our game.

We are delicately poised! I think a war with England is doable particularly if we pillage Englands only source of Saltpetre.

Your comment about the harbors is great. I hadn't thought of it at all. This makes an ROP agreement with the Iroqs much more attractive, as we can pillage all roads to the harbors with explorers and cause great pain this way. All Englands oversees trades would terminate, their Rep would be destroyed and they would not be able to buy saltpetre.

I agree that a long war against England would not be a good idea. However I don't think that was the plan. I think we were contemplating 5 or six turns just to take out their core to finish them as a rival, take their spices and wines and any techs they have, and prepare the new lands as a base to take out the Iroquois.

Our culture is appalling. The jungle bound and slow start we had gave us no opportunity to build temples etc, and is one of the reasons that I advocate war and a domination attempt. However, the Persians are confined to an island, so no amount of war will result in large territorial gains. The AI just can't do that over water. So I think that we could conceivably win by space race, particularly as you say if we steal a few techs here and there.

What I'm having trouble getting my head around is that we are at 450AD and at this tech rate a space launch looks likely at around 1300AD. So already we are in time trouble.

We need to get a wriggle on. :)

Again thanks for your post. It is most welcome.
 
I'd like to add my thanks too, Zwingli. I've seen your 2 city conquest reports for GOTM18 so I know your comments are coming from an expert in tricky warfare with limited reasources :).

I didn't notice the fact about the harbors. That's very interesting, like Mad says we can use that if manage to get there in time.

Culture...? What's is that? Never heard of it! What do you say, Temples? Oh, is that what they're for? Let's build some! ;)

Persia, I'd like to be in their shoes alright, I think at some point we need to rally the Indians against them.

SHard, Wanderer, I guess I'm playing tonight (5 turns) so if you want to have your say in this discussion do so today.
 
Re: Culture

One minor piddling concern about Culture: right now, Persia has a lot, but they're closely matched by Liz. If we cut out the legs from Liz, we're going to have to do something to prevent Persia from getting a 100K Victory...it's a doubtful scenario, but anything's possible
 
I was trying to stay very quiet in the corner. My basic view is that I know absolutely nothing about war in Civ at all. I have read through everyone's thoughts and I'm supposing that war with England is not such a bad idea, but surely culture flips will be a killer unless we wipe them out? They have such a very strong culture and our capital is a fair way away. Anyway, I'll leave the war planning up to you guys mainly.

My feeling on whether to go for space or domination is to try for domination if we our successful against the English. If we are not we may need to go for space race. The AI is not to great at the space race and we should be able to win this way.

Also thanks to Zwingli for taking the time to help us out :)
 
Sorry guys, I planned to play tonight but RL got in the way. I had to make some arrangements for our family trip to Crete :cool: . ChrTh if you like to play we could switch back, if not, I'll play tomorrow night.
 
DAMMIT...I don't have my regular Civ III disc at home, so I can't play tonight :( ... I'll wait for Space
 
Preturn:

CTR1-team on the warpath so I switch:
Sirp-Orange from marketplace to cav.
Denver from courthouse to worker.
Satsuma from courthouse to cav.
Kyoto from bank to cav.
Buy temple in Boston for 36g, in Rheims for 72g, in Memphis for 80g.
Switch Osaka, Dark Blue and Dark Chocolate from Library to Cav.
Send warrior to replace an elite Sam.

Press enter.

IT - Hiawatha suggests we give him Mil Trad and WM for his WM. I tell him: "wouldn't you rather have an ROP and give us Free Artistry and your WM and the whole of your treasury (6 gold)?" He says: "Yes, why not?" :)

560AD - turn 1
Boston Temple -> worker
Rheims Temple -> worker
Memphis Temple -> worker
Order our workers around.
Buy Temple in Philly for 56g.

Check diplo:
India bought nationalism and is broke now.
Persia has nationalism and steam power :(!
Lizzy still only nationalism.
Hiawatha nothing (he makes 3 gold a turn).

IT - Persia sails a boat along our border, doesn't cross it.

570AD - turn 2
Edo aquaduct -> temple
Dark Green galleon -> galleon
Philly temple -> worker
San Fran barracks -> cav
Lots of worker action.

Check diplo:
nothing new

IT - Nada

580AD - turn 3
Dark Chocolate cav -> cav

Check diplo:
Lizzy has steam power.

IT - Zzzz

590AD - turn 4
Orleans worker -> worker
Detroit galleon -> galleon
Memphis borders expand.

Check diplo:
nothing new

IT - Iroqs and England sign peace :eek:

600AD - turn 5
Dark Humour aquaduct -> courthouse
Detroit switched to barracks as it has no harbor, I think we have time to build a vet galleon somewhere else. The next player can veto this.

Check diplo:
India has Steam Power as well now, we trade world maps.
Trade WM for WM + 4g from Iroqs

The powergraph shows persia has coal, there's a distinct bend in the curve :(.
This is still going to be hard guys, good luck ChrTh, here's the hot potato :)
 
Turn 0 -- 600 AD
I review our current forces:
1 Cav
26 Sam
2 Galleons

Compared to India and Persia, our army is weak; we're average with England and strong v Iroqi

Galleons hold 4 troops...so we're going to need some more Cavs and Gals before we attack (7 more Gals at least)...I concentrate on building troops

Turn 1 -- 610 AD
Kyoto Cav > Cav
Boston Worker > Explorer (since we need 2 of them)
Osaka Cav > Cav
Atlanta Aqueduct > Barracks
Dark Blue Cav > Cav
Baltimore Harbor > Barracks (can be vetoed)
Satsuma Cav > Temple
Kagoshima Aqueduct > Cav


I'm tempted to make a trade for Steam Power ... it's not going to get any cheaper (since the Iroqi are behind even us) ... I want to make the trade with India, that way they're less likely to attack us during Operation Bangers and :hammer:

I don't make the trade...I'd rather we discuss it before the next turn (it'll wipe out our treasury)

Turn 2 -- 620 AD
I redo the trade with Xerxes for Incense...fewer gpt, but his whole treasury is wiped out now (Don't attack Persia for 20 turns)
Chicago Gal > Barr
Edo Temple > Cav

I hurry some Temples with the extra cash

Turn 3 -- 630 AD
Wash Temple > Barracks
NYC Temple > Barracks
Atlanta Barracks > Gal
Sirp-Orange Cav > Cav
Dark-Green Gal > Gal
Houston Temple > Barracks
Buffalo Temple > Barracks
Tokyo Harbor > Marketplace (feel free to veto)
Detroit Barr > Gal
Nawlins Temple > Barr
Satsuma Temple > Gal
Nara Temple > Barr


Hrmmm...our army is now weak compared to Liz's!

Huh...somehow I missed it: Liz has conquered the eastern Iroqi cities
This does not bode well for our heroes...

Turn 4 -- 640 AD
Denver Worker > Barr
I hurry some Cav

Turn 5 -- 650 AD
Kyoto Cav > Cav
Osaka Cav > Cav
Dark Chocolate Cav > Cav

Well, I built up the army some more...we may need to reeval our Operation Bangers and :hammer: , though

Here's a mini-map:

CTR1--Minimap650AD.jpg


Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/CTR1--650AD.SAV

Mad-bax, you're up!
 
This is my got it post.

I have looked at the save, and here is what I think. First I have checked the advisor and our military is still average against the English. There is a bit of a delay when you change over the Civ you're looking at. So I would still go for the war. I'm not going to start it though. I want to change cav production to muskets. This is so we can replace defensive sams with muskets and upgrade the sams. This is much quicker. I would also like to change all the 1 shield cities to producing workers. This will keep their popul;ation down and reduce the need for luxury slider use. Also we need twice as many workers as we have already for when we extort steam power from Liz.

The save looks good. Our deals with liz run out in 5 turns and we'll be 100gpt richer and she will be short of 3 luxuries. The next war is gonna be great.

We have 11 elite Sams. We could be in for a leader boom!

What are all your thoughts?
 
I'm glad you sound so optimistic :). I'm used to having more productive cities, that's why I got a bit down with the situation. But don't get me wrong, it is very interesting to be in such an (for me) a-typical civ game :).

edit: ChrTh are the English and Iroqs at war again? I'm at work so I can't open the save.
 
No. They are at peace.

I opened a save from GOTM 20 and tried a war against the Ottomans who had nationalism. 23 Cavalry failed to take a 12 pop city defended be 3 vet rifles, 1 reg rifle and 1 pike. In 2 turns 80 cavalry were reduced to 50 red-lined cavalry and I only took 3 pop 6 towns.

I think I am having second thoughts.

Anyway, about the Iroquois... :)
 
Here's what I'm thinking:

Trade for Steam Power with the Indians and if we need to get more, do so. Take out the Iroqis before the English do. Then, once we've railroaded our lands good, we should be in position to beat the AI, either by domination or possibly even Space Race.
 
I am a warmonger, and I can tell you from experience that I have very little luck with cavalry once the AI has nationalism. The only successful strategy is to use a large stack of cannons to weaken the rifles before attacking the city. I don't think we have much in the way of cannons. They only cost 40 shields, but I doubt we have the time to build enough of them.

What do we gain by taking out the Iroquios? Maybe we should concentrate on building infrastructure right now and prepare for a space race or a war once we have tanks.

I would rather take on Ghandi and capture the pyramids than fight the Iroquios. Can we get Xerxes to join us in a war against India? I think we need to keep the other civs fighting to try to slow them down.
 
Originally posted by Earp
What do we gain by taking out the Iroquios? Maybe we should concentrate on building infrastructure right now and prepare for a space race or a war once we have tanks.

We have the troops to take the Iroqi. If we don't take them, the British will at some point. When it comes time to fight the British, it'll be nice if we don't have to establish a landing area.
 
Here's another option: Diplo. India is gracious towards us. England and Persia are polite. We only need two votes (besides ourselves) to win via UN. Perhaps we go that route?
 
Originally posted by ChrTh
Here's another option: Diplo. India is gracious towards us. England and Persia are polite. We only need two votes (besides ourselves) to win via UN. Perhaps we go that route?

Thats what I was thinking. But I also think we need some leaders.
Palace jump
TOE
UN

I vote we go after the Iroquois just to generate a couple of leaders. Palace jump with the first and save the second for TOE then Pre-build the UN. Save as much money as possible if we have to buy fission.
 
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