[RD] Cultural Appropriation: The Solution?

[NovaKart]

I’ve just been saying Latin X. I don’t know what people do when they’re actually speaking Spanish.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Please clarify: You're just talking about your country, and not generally throughout North and South America, right?

History between countries is pretty disparate, across times too. Portugal was pretty benign compared to how Spain interacted with Inca for example. French policy towards native populations in NA in colonial times was also, in the comparative sense, very friendly (France would be a little less nice during the scramble for Africa).

Somebody gives a crap, apparently. And since you seem to be against them giving a crap, you seem to also give a crap?

Problem is more so when their "giving a crap" affords the ability to compel action from other people.

I can be upset or not upset about essentially anything I please and it doesn't matter one bit to other people. If I start telling them how they should act or especially advocating use of force (legal or otherwise) to compel people to act in accordance with my feelings...yes they would then give a crap and I better have a good reason for what I'm doing.

 

[warpus]

I'm curious what legal approach might work in a case of cultural appropriation, aside from trademark/copyright related concerns

 

[NovaKart]

I don’t think laws on cultural appropriation would stand a chance in court since they sound like they would clearly violate the constitution. The one exception to this could be companies selling traditional designs, and I don’t think that would hold up in court either because a cultural tradition isn’t usually considered trademarked property although I think that could apply in some cases to recognized tribal groups, being an unusual exception.

It seems largely limited to people just taking offense and making accusations of racism.

I imagine this involves a lot of assumptions too. Let’s say someone accosts a woman she sees in the street wearing Native American tribal jewelry and the woman who is not Native American bought it from a Navajo vendor in Santa Fe who sells his traditional designs. I mean I suppose she could just tell people that but does she need to tell everyone where she bought the necklace and I imagine most offended people will just give her dirty looks.

Another criticism of cultural appropriation is to ask if people who adopt the custom know the history behind whatever they’re appropriating.

So, what is they do? What if they’re an expert in fact. Do they need to carry around a disclaimer informing people of this? Are people from that culture always so knowledgeable of their own cultural traditions?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I doubt any legal approach could work, that would require the kind of coherent standards I asked for earlier in the thread (a request that is intentionally inconvenient to the OP's premise). Culture/subculture and "how far back do you trace this" are major wrenches in any attempt at creating a consistent system for valid claims of it.

It's a nonsense concept anyway, which is why I challenged it. Similar to an assertion along the lines of "if we assume that TMIT could stop the moon from falling into Earth single-handed", you could say a lot of things if you accept that assumption. They're unfortunately just not relevant to anything applicable in reality.

If we're really to care about something like this, it'd be more useful to just discourage people from being jerks, also mentioned earlier in the thread. I see no reason to assign special credence to one source of annoyance compared to a long list of others.

Put another way: if someone is upset over that headdress choice and other person is upset over a furry costume, why should anybody uninvolved care about "offended" feelings more in one of those examples than the other? The answer to this question is a central consideration to the topic! If one can't answer it, it is impossible to elevate "cultural appropriation" above the significance of an arbitrary routine annoyance.

 

[luiz]

I wonder how far the LatinX thing will get pushed. I already see it in some media.

For crying out loud. As a South American I'd rather be called spic or wetback than LatinX.

Edit: the autocensor didn't stop me so I assume those words are kosher to write in context. I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm Latino myself, etc.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I didn't know "LatinX" was a thing. I didn't read it properly the first time and briefly wondered what kind of product it was.

 

[Lexicus]

For crying out loud. As a South American I'd rather be called spic or wetback than LatinX.

My roommate, who's also from South America, prefers to be called "Latinx" ymmv

 

[luiz]

My roommate, who's also from South America, prefers to be called "Latinx" ymmv

And that's fine, but I assume he/she would likewise be fine with latino/latina or just "Latin" if we are to be gender neutral. LatinX seems to be solving a non-existing problem as there's already a gender neutral word for Latin people. It's a bit like calling someone blackX or JewX

 

[Lexicus]

And that's fine, but I assume he/she would likewise be fine with latino/latina or just "Latin" if we are to be gender neutral.

I actually don't think so. She's pretty deep into lgbtq advocacy.

 

[NovaKart]

And this might bring up the issue of whether those who support LatinX want it to be the default or just support its use for genderqueer people (if that’s the right word to use).

 

[Lexicus]

And this might bring up the issue of whether those who support LatinX want it to be the default or just support its use for genderqueer people (if that’s the right word to use).

I'm not really sure, but I generally don't have a problem using whatever terms people want me to use.

 

[metalhead]

I can be upset or not upset about essentially anything I please and it doesn't matter one bit to other people. If I start telling them how they should act or especially advocating use of force (legal or otherwise) to compel people to act in accordance with my feelings...yes they would then give a crap and I better have a good reason for what I'm doing.

I dunno, "don't be a dick" is, or certainly should be, a pretty universal directive, no.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I dunno, "don't be a dick" is, or certainly should be, a pretty universal directive, no.

Sure, but you don't need a special term or vast legal policy to identify people who are being jerks, or even people making strange fashion choices.

What I'm asking for, and is being systematically not delivered, is what makes the concept of "cultural appropriation" special in this regard.

 

[Bootstoots]

Is there any movement (even a marginal one) among Spanish or Portuguese speakers to replace the use of masculine gender with something neutral for the mixed-gender plural or indeterminate gender? Or did "Latinx" and the like (I've also seen "Latin@") come entirely from left-wing English speakers?

 

[warpus]

it'd be more useful to just discourage people from being jerks

I see it more as an opportunity to educate people on other cultures.

But how are you going to stop people from being jerks, if that's what they really want to do? I could see schools taking action in the case of something blatant, but outside of that, what could be done to stop jerks who aren't breaking the law?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I see it more as an opportunity to educate people on other cultures.

But how are you going to stop people from being jerks, if that's what they really want to do? I could see schools taking action in the case of something blatant, but outside of that, what could be done to stop jerks who aren't breaking the law?

I don't know, which is why I pointed out back on page one that the "solution" to this one might well be to conclude it's not a special problem and ignore it. Educating on cultures sounds nice, and people who want to learn might appreciate it...usually not what happens when someone brings up "cultural appropriation" rather than just explaining how things actually were done historically and why.

 

[warpus]

I don't know, which is why I pointed out back on page one that the "solution" to this one might well be to conclude it's not a special problem and ignore it. Educating on cultures sounds nice, and people who want to learn might appreciate it...usually not what happens when someone brings up "cultural appropriation" rather than just explaining how things actually were done historically and why.

What I meant (in what you were quoting) is that instead of yelling "hey! cultural appropriation!" whenever you see somebody obviously not Polish wearing a traditional silesian outfit (for example), maybe it could be a chance to walk up to that person instead and say something like: "cool costume! Did you know that this red stripe on your pants signifies the 1257 Polish victory over the Bulgarians?". It will probably lead to nothing, but it might lead to the person googling this stuff later and actually educating him/herself. In the end, if they really want to wear clothing from other cultures, they will, so..

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What I meant (in what you were quoting) is that instead of yelling "hey! cultural appropriation!" whenever you see somebody obviously not Polish wearing a traditional silesian outfit (for example), maybe it could be a chance to walk up to that person instead and say something like: "cool costume! Did you know that this red stripe on your pants signifies the 1257 Polish victory over the Bulgarians?". It will probably lead to nothing, but it might lead to the person googling this stuff later and actually educating him/herself. In the end, if they really want to wear clothing from other cultures, they will, so..

Beats the heck out of talking about the weather. Again.

 

[luiz]

Is there any movement (even a marginal one) among Spanish or Portuguese speakers to replace the use of masculine gender with something neutral for the mixed-gender plural or indeterminate gender? Or did "Latinx" and the like (I've also seen "Latin@") come entirely from left-wing English speakers?

It comes entirely from left-wing English speakers, but like many other bad ideas, it has spread. It's used by a very very tiny group, and for now the media ignores it, but you can see now and then on Facebook stuff like "amigXs". Basically the idea is not to replace gendered words, but to replace the neutral plural (which is masculine in portuguese).