Cultural Sizes

Toffer90 · Dec 8, 2015

Right now the culture required to grow from Illustrious to Phenomenal (last two levels) cultural level on eternity is:
4 000 000 :culture:

With my proposal (if possible) the last cultural growth on eternity can cost as much as:
~~21 474 836~~ 10 737 418 :culture:

olduser · Dec 9, 2015

Toffer90 said:
Right now the culture required to grow from Illustrious to Phenomenal (last two levels) cultural level on eternity is:
4 000 000

With my proposal (if possible) the last cultural growth on eternity can cost as much as:
21 474 836

That's too much the actual limit is 10 737 418 :culture:

because of the No Espionage gameoption.

Toffer90 · Dec 9, 2015

alberts2 said:
That's too much the actual limit is 10 737 418 because of the No Espionage gameoption.

How does No Espionage gameoption influence this?
Both when it's on and off? (Edit: only when on I guess.)

Edit:

Code:

This is where it happens I guess. GlobalDefines.xml
	<Define>
		<DefineName>NO_ESPIONAGE_CULTURE_LEVEL_MODIFIER</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>100</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>

What is the reason behind this adjustment?

olduser · Dec 9, 2015

Toffer90 said:
How does No Espionage gameoption influence this?
Both when it's on and off? (Edit: only when on I guess.)

I don't remember the details but higher values lead to a integer overflow in case that option is on.

Toffer90 · Dec 9, 2015

Started a game with "No Espionage", it seems it then convert every point of espionage into culture and this is the reason for doubling the culture level value.

We could perhaps change it to convert espionage into gold instead?
Most buildings that gives espionage are disabled under "No Espionage" anyway.

EDIT: I'm probably wrong, but here goes:

Code:

CvGame.cpp

11697: lThreshold *= 100 + GC.getDefineINT("NO_ESPIONAGE_CULTURE_LEVEL_MODIFIER");
11698: lThreshold /= 100;

If we changed espionage to be converted to gold there would be no need for NO_ESPIONAGE_CULTURE_LEVEL_MODIFIER

Code:

CvGame.cpp

11697: lThreshold *= 100 + 0;
11698: lThreshold /= 100;

And there would be no need to multiply this Long Integer by a 100 to begin with. and we would free up more than enough for more cultural levels.

Edit2:
I think this is where it happens:

Code:

CvPlayer.cpp

	int iRate = m_aiCommerceRate[eIndex];
	if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_ESPIONAGE))
	{
		if (eIndex == COMMERCE_CULTURE)
		{
			iRate += m_aiCommerceRate[COMMERCE_ESPIONAGE];
		}
		else if (eIndex == COMMERCE_ESPIONAGE)
		{
			iRate = 0;
		}
	}

	return iRate / 100;

CvCity.cpp has some similar lines and the building-focus of a city would need adjustments too, so... not saying it's a simple job.

olduser · Dec 9, 2015

Toffer90 said:
Started a game with "No Espionage", it seems it then convert every point of espionage into culture and this is the reason for doubling the culture level value.

We could perhaps change it to convert espionage into gold instead?
Most buildings that gives espionage are disabled under "No Espionage" anyway.

EDIT: I'm probably wrong, but here goes:

Code:

CvGame.cpp 11697: lThreshold *= 100 + GC.getDefineINT("NO_ESPIONAGE_CULTURE_LEVEL_MODIFIER"); 11698: lThreshold /= 100;

If we changed espionage to be converted to gold there would be no need for NO_ESPIONAGE_CULTURE_LEVEL_MODIFIER

Code:

CvGame.cpp 11697: lThreshold *= 100 + 0; 11698: lThreshold /= 100;

And there would be no need to multiply this Long Integer by a 100 to begin with. and we would free up more than enough for more cultural levels.

Edit2:
I think this is where it happens:

Code:

CvPlayer.cpp int iRate = m_aiCommerceRate[eIndex]; if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_ESPIONAGE)) { if (eIndex == COMMERCE_CULTURE) { iRate += m_aiCommerceRate[COMMERCE_ESPIONAGE]; } else if (eIndex == COMMERCE_ESPIONAGE) { iRate = 0; } } return iRate / 100;

Even if we make those changes or other changes to that option, 21474836 is the maximum.

Toffer90 · Dec 9, 2015

alberts2 said:
Even if we make those changes or other changes to that option, 21474836 is the maximum.

It's 2 times more than what we currently have. And if combined with resetting culture to 0 at each growth, it would be 5 times more than we now got.
I think it's worth the effort at least.

JosEPh_II · Dec 9, 2015

@Toffer,

Why not change this from 100 to 50 for starters:

Code:

<Define>
		<DefineName>NO_ESPIONAGE_CULTURE_LEVEL_MODIFIER</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>100</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>

Would give you some wiggle room I would think.

And why do we need so many Cultural levels anyway?

JosEPh

Toffer90 · Dec 9, 2015

JosEPh_II said:
@Toffer,
...
And why do we need so many Cultural levels anyway?

JosEPh

Not that we need more cultural levels per say, I just think it appropriate to space them apart a bit so it takes more culture/time to reach the top level regardless of the number of levels, adding more levels would be to have cultural expanse happen more often, I'm not sure if we need more levels actually.

Dancing Hoskuld · Dec 9, 2015

Realistic Cultural Spread uses about double the number of levels, if I remember correctly.

Arakhor · Dec 11, 2015

I'd have thought that having fewer (and/or less effective) culture sources would make much more sense than trying to plan around an inevitable engine glut.

JosEPh_II · Dec 11, 2015

Arakhor said:
I'd have thought that having fewer (and/or less effective) culture sources would make much more sense than trying to plan around an inevitable engine glut.

Even Afforess didn't see it that way when he made the RCS modmod. He's the one that added all the extra levels. And impo crippled Culture spread for doing so. ( I know sacrilegious words in deed!)

It was a big change from how Zappara had RoM set up for Culture before RCS was added to the Options list.

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld · Dec 11, 2015

If I remember correctly there are two sets of Cultural levels, one if you don't play with RCS which is the same as normal BtS and one for those that play with RCS that has an extra step (level) between each of the normal Cultural level. That is why I asked my question earlier.

The last time I played without RCS the culture expanded as it does in BtS easily going out 6 plots from my capital in the expected way. I hope some one has not unknowingly combined or mixed these two up.

Toffer90 · Dec 11, 2015

Dancing Hoskuld said:
If I remember correctly there are two sets of Cultural levels, one if you don't play with RCS which is the same as normal BtS and one for those that play with RCS that has an extra step (level) between each of the normal Cultural level. That is why I asked my question earlier.

The last time I played without RCS the culture expanded as it does in BtS easily going out 6 plots from my capital in the expected way. I hope some one has not unknowingly combined or mixed these two up.

What has been in the SVN for a while:

Poor - 0% Defense
Fledgling - 10% Defense
Developing - 20% Defense
Prominent - Only with RCS
Refined
Elegant - Only with RCS
Influential
Impressive - Only with RCS
Legendary
Illustrious - 55% Defense
Phenomenal - 60% Defense

NW - WW limits for the highest cultural level:

Spoiler :

What I did in my modmod:

Spoiler :

Edit: ↓@Arakhor↓: Sure :lol:

Arakhor · Dec 11, 2015

I would suggest Transcendent, instead of Transcendental. The former sounds better than the latter.

Toffer90 · Dec 14, 2015

Toffer90 said:
Would it be possible to reset a city's culture to 0 at each growth without reducing its cultural level? This would enable us to add more cultural levels without exceeding the maximum iTreshold value or without heavily adjusting culture income by like -80% for all cities.

Heres an example of what we would gain if this was possible.
As it is now, a city can only gain 21 474 836 (When "No Espionage" is off).

From → To - Total :culture:

value to reach

Spoiler :

If it resets to 0 on each level it would be:

Spoiler :

Code:

POOR &#8594; FLEDGLING		- 500
POOR &#8594; DEVELOPING		- 500 + 1 310			= 1 810
POOR &#8594; DISTINGUISHED		- 1 810 + 2 620 		= 4 430
POOR &#8594; PROMINENT		- 4 430 + 5 240 		= 9 670
POOR &#8594; REFINED			- 9 670 + 10 480 		= 20 150
POOR &#8594; ELEGANT			- 20 150 + 20 960 		= 41 110
POOR &#8594; INFLUENTIAL		- 41 110 + 41 920 		= 83 030
POOR &#8594; IMPRESSIVE		- 83 030 + 83 840 		= 166 870
POOR &#8594; EXTRAORDINARY		- 166 870 + 167 680 		= 334 550
POOR &#8594; SPECTACULAR		- 334 550 + 335 360 		= 669 910
POOR &#8594; ILLUSTRIOUS		- 669 910 + 670 720 		= 1 340 630
POOR &#8594; PHENOMENAL		- 1 340 630 + 1 341 440 	= 2 682 070
POOR &#8594; MONUMENTAL		- 2 682 070 + 2 682 880 	= 5 364 950
POOR &#8594; LEGENDARY		- 5 364 950 + 5 365 760 	= 10 730 710
POOR &#8594; OTHERWORLDLY		- 10 730 710 + 10 731 520	= 21 462 230
POOR &#8594; TRANSCENDENTAL		- 21 462 230 + 21 463 040	= 42 925 270

Now that was just a doubling of the working range for culture.

Spoiler :

Thunderbrd · Dec 14, 2015

We might have to do something like that but it's NOT a simple change. Then we also have a problem with the overall national cultural level obtained - that would need to behave in a similar manner if we're to get to galactic at these culture rates.

Faustmouse · Dec 15, 2015

In an OCC game a year or two ago I also hit a :science:

barrierer and it turned negative or very small, I don't really remember. It happened in the TH era. Sure, this city was a MONSTER, but I'm pretty sure cities will hit this limit in the galactic era nevertheless.

Toffer90 · Dec 15, 2015

Faustmouse said:
In an OCC game a year or two ago I also hit a barrierer and it turned negative or very small, I don't really remember. It happened in the TH era. Sure, this city was a MONSTER, but I'm pretty sure cities will hit this limit in the galactic era nevertheless.

What does OCC stand for?

Dancing Hoskuld · Dec 15, 2015

OCC = One City Challenge

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