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Demographics, Health Bonuses and Population Growth

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Praetyre, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Persoanlly I agree with you. Was just answering Praetyre's question
     
  2. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    By era:

    Prehistoric: Çatalhöyük in Turkey had 3000 people. On the vanilla scale, this works out to 1. On mine, 2.

    Ancient: Memphis in Egypt and Ur in Iraq each had about 60,000 people, which comes out to either 4 or 9.

    Classical/Medieval/Renaissance: The largest cities of the time are Rome and Alexandria with 1,000,000, which means 12 or 25.

    Industrial: Well, Beijing becomes the first city to eclipse a million with 1,100,000, but a better maximum is 1950 New York, with 12,463,000 people, coming to 13 or 36 (now the reasons for my advocating renumbering become a lot clearer).

    Beyond this, there's no reason current technology couldn't support Tokyo-sized cities as the norm, it's just a matter of low birth rates. I'll be very impressed if anyone manages to get a city with 100,000,000, though (that'd be size 75 under my model).
     
  3. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    These 2 quotes are at odds with each other. If we make the cities become :mad: and :yuck: by city size 2 then it will piss off people but be more realistic.

    What do you think we should do?
     
  4. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    I could extend the city populations so that, say, sizes 1-6 go up in integers of 500. That allows for broader development at the Prehistoric level, which ought to be fairly long given it's a big draw of the mod. Of course, I'd have to give pops all the way up to 46 or so, but that shouldn't be a problem if I know how to edit them.

    Failing that, you could make any population changes game options, or even adjustable BUG settings.
     
  5. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Tweaking the population seems the best way to go. I say go for it if you know how to mod that.

    I honestly don't pay attention much to my city population, only the city size. If this can make things more realistic then go for it.
     
  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I have had cities start out with -7:yuck: which is why I want to get my disease mod up and running. At last the part that replaces terrain :yuck: with something a bit better.
     
  7. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    I'm certain I could: I need only know what file holds the size-pop figures. Since C2C has not (as far as I can tell) edited these in any way, I assume I need to look in the Civ4 or BTS folder and copy and paste into the C2C one to edit? Searching within both folders has revealed nothing, unfortunately.
     
  8. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Was it near jungle or flood plains? That could explain it.
     
  9. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I'll take a look at the code that generates the text and figure it out for you. Will let you know when I have an answer
     
  10. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Turns out they are not held anywhere. They are calculated using this method:

    Code:
    long CvCity::getRealPopulation() const
    {
    	return (((long)(pow((float)getPopulation(), 2.8f))) * 1000);
    }
    i.e. - it's (numPopUnits ^ 2.8) * 1000.

    I can change this to make it table-driven easily enough. In principle I could give you a new XML file that defined the table values, but it all feels like a lot of effort, so an easy compromise would be for you to provide me with the numbers you think are right and I'll just hard-code a table into the DLL to replace the existing calculation. Provide me up to some reasonable size (75 say?) and I'll just have the code double it for each successive point after the last one in the table.
     
  11. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    Alright then, here's the revised table:

    1: 50
    2: 100
    3: 250
    4: 500
    5: 750
    6: 1000
    7: 1500
    8: 2000
    9: 2500
    10: 3000 (threshold for Town Hall and other buildings that used to require size 6, ideal max for Prehistoric era)
    11: 4000
    12: 5000
    13: 7500
    14: 10,000
    15: 15,000
    16: 20,000
    17: 30,000
    18: 40,000
    19: 50,000
    20: 60,000 (threshold for City Hall and other buildings that used to require size 13, ideal max for Ancient era)
    21: 70,000
    22: 80,000
    23: 90,000
    24: 100,000
    25: 125,000
    26: 150,000
    27: 175,000
    28: 200,000
    29: 225,000
    30: 250,000
    31: 300,000
    32: 350,000
    33: 400,000
    34: 450,000
    35: 500,000
    36: 550,000
    37: 600,000
    38: 650,000
    39: 700,000
    40: 750,000
    41: 800,000
    42: 850,000
    43: 900,000
    44: 950,000
    45: 1,000,000 (threshold for Metropolitan Administration and other buildings that used to require size 25, ideal max for Classical/Medieval/Renaissance era)
    46: 1,100,000
    47: 1,200,000
    48: 1,300,000
    49: 1,400,000
    50: 1,500,000
    51: 1,600,000
    52: 1,700,000
    53: 1,800,000
    54: 1,900,000
    55: 2,000,000
    56: 2,250,000
    57: 2,500,000
    58: 2,750,000
    59: 3,000,000
    60: 3,500,000
    61: 4,000,000
    62: 5,000,000
    63: 6,000,000
    64: 7,000,000
    65: 8,000,000
    66: 9,000,000
    67: 10,000,000
    68: 12,000,000 (ideal max for Industrial era)
    69: 14,000,000
    70: 16,000,000
    71: 18,000,000
    72: 20,000,000
    73: 22,250,000
    74: 25,000,000
    75: 25,750,000
    76: 30,000,000
    77: 35,000,000
    78: 40,000,000
    79: 45,000,000
    80: 50,000,000
    81: 55,000,000
    82: 60,000,000
    83: 65,000,000
    84: 70,000,000
    85: 75,000,000
    86: 80,000,000
    87: 85,000,000
    88: 90,000,000
    89: 95,000,000
    90: 100,000,000
    91: 110,000,000
    92: 120,000,000
    93: 130,000,000
    94: 140,000,000
    95: 150,000,000
    96: 160,000,000
    97: 170,000,000
    98: 180,000,000
    99: 190,000,000
    100: 200,000,000

    If anyone gets beyond 100, even under my 10,000 turn scenario, I'll be astounded, but I'll be happy to bring it up to 200.
     
  12. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Praetyre

    Should the Village Hall (1), Town Hall (6), City Council (13), Metropolitan Administration (25) and Capital Administration (30) city size requirement be changed?

    If so what city size should they be set at?
     
  13. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    Noted above, sorry, just took me a while to catch it and edit in the figures.
     
  14. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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  15. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I'll change the reported pop numbers to match the proposed table since that's cosmetic, but the changes to sizes required for building types need much more discussion first. Personally I disagree with them (as proposed anyway). 10 is too high for many of the buildings requiring 6 now. Doesn't matter during prehistoric, but in later eras not being able to push things like lighthouses into newish cities on islands hampers growth too much (just one example).

    IF we could modify the size requirement on a building by era (obviously doable if we want to spend the effort) then I think having higher pop requirements in earlier eras and lowering them/removing them for certain builings in later eras might work.
     
  16. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    I am open to tweaking them, especially if i have to redo them all anyways. I was thinking the same thing when he updated his post. While many cities get to over 10 by ancient I think it would be too hard to get the harder things. We may need to make a scale by era for buildings.
     
  17. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    I'm feeling in a "think outside the box" mood at the moment, so how about this to resolve the discrepancy without having my plan become a pain to synch with building requirements: Different starting city sizes depending on the Settler unit you use. Bands and Tribes give you 1, Settlers 6, Colonists 10 and Pioneers 14. Of course, a corresponding amount would have to be subtracted from the city they were built in, but that's just an extension of existing colonization mechanics. The only issue I can see is that the amount taken would be much greater in some cases than the amount put out, but otherwise you'd probably end up with huge balance issues with larger cities if you reckoned it literally from the cosmetic numbers.
     
  18. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    They already do create cities of different sizes (though not THAT big a difference between the units).

    I'm just leary of large changes to the actual mechanics without a lot of thought about the implications for things like the AI. Small changes (like tweaking the required sizes a BIT) would be fine, but radical chnages we need to be careful with.
     
  19. Nevets_

    Nevets_ Warlord

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    I suggested it a few revisions ago, but what about fractional :yuck: and :mad: per population, like the 0.15 :health: / pop from an aqueduct but in reverse. Flat :mad: and :yuck: penalties can be too onerous in the stone age, and trivial by the Renaissance, but fractional ones will always be relevant.

    So instead of the Garbage Everywhere giving you a +2 :yuck:, you get a +0.5 :yuck: / Pop. At size 4 that's just +2 :yuck:, but a size 24 city is now +12 :yuck:.
     
  20. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    This tabel is in the DLL I'll be pushing to SVN, and uploading to the patch thread later this afternoon (with entry 75 corrected in the obvious fashion)
     

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