Persoanlly I agree with you. Was just answering Praetyre's question
Demographics, Health Bonuses and Population Growth
- Thread starter Praetyre
- Start date
Persoanlly I agree with you. Was just answering Praetyre's question
Praetyre
King
By era:
Prehistoric: Çatalhöyük in Turkey had 3000 people. On the vanilla scale, this works out to 1. On mine, 2.
Ancient: Memphis in Egypt and Ur in Iraq each had about 60,000 people, which comes out to either 4 or 9.
Classical/Medieval/Renaissance: The largest cities of the time are Rome and Alexandria with 1,000,000, which means 12 or 25.
Industrial: Well, Beijing becomes the first city to eclipse a million with 1,100,000, but a better maximum is 1950 New York, with 12,463,000 people, coming to 13 or 36 (now the reasons for my advocating renumbering become a lot clearer).
Beyond this, there's no reason current technology couldn't support Tokyo-sized cities as the norm, it's just a matter of low birth rates. I'll be very impressed if anyone manages to get a city with 100,000,000, though (that'd be size 75 under my model).
Prehistoric: Çatalhöyük in Turkey had 3000 people. On the vanilla scale, this works out to 1. On mine, 2.
Ancient: Memphis in Egypt and Ur in Iraq each had about 60,000 people, which comes out to either 4 or 9.
Classical/Medieval/Renaissance: The largest cities of the time are Rome and Alexandria with 1,000,000, which means 12 or 25.
Industrial: Well, Beijing becomes the first city to eclipse a million with 1,100,000, but a better maximum is 1950 New York, with 12,463,000 people, coming to 13 or 36 (now the reasons for my advocating renumbering become a lot clearer).
Beyond this, there's no reason current technology couldn't support Tokyo-sized cities as the norm, it's just a matter of low birth rates. I'll be very impressed if anyone manages to get a city with 100,000,000, though (that'd be size 75 under my model).
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
WOW, i haven't even got to turn 1 yet and i haveand
already.
At least on turn 9 i got Native Language and i got rid of that awful
These 2 quotes are at odds with each other. If we make the cities become
and by city size 2 then it will piss off people but be more realistic.What do you think we should do?
Praetyre
King
I could extend the city populations so that, say, sizes 1-6 go up in integers of 500. That allows for broader development at the Prehistoric level, which ought to be fairly long given it's a big draw of the mod. Of course, I'd have to give pops all the way up to 46 or so, but that shouldn't be a problem if I know how to edit them.
Failing that, you could make any population changes game options, or even adjustable BUG settings.
Failing that, you could make any population changes game options, or even adjustable BUG settings.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Tweaking the population seems the best way to go. I say go for it if you know how to mod that.
I honestly don't pay attention much to my city population, only the city size. If this can make things more realistic then go for it.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I have had cities start out with -7 which is why I want to get my disease mod up and running. At last the part that replaces terrain with something a bit better.
which is why I want to get my disease mod up and running. At last the part that replaces terrain with something a bit better.
Praetyre
King
I'm certain I could: I need only know what file holds the size-pop figures. Since C2C has not (as far as I can tell) edited these in any way, I assume I need to look in the Civ4 or BTS folder and copy and paste into the C2C one to edit? Searching within both folders has revealed nothing, unfortunately.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I have had cities start out with -7
Was it near jungle or flood plains? That could explain it.
I'll take a look at the code that generates the text and figure it out for you. Will let you know when I have an answer
Turns out they are not held anywhere. They are calculated using this method:
Code:
long CvCity::getRealPopulation() const
{
return (((long)(pow((float)getPopulation(), 2.8f))) * 1000);
}i.e. - it's (numPopUnits ^ 2.8) * 1000.
I can change this to make it table-driven easily enough. In principle I could give you a new XML file that defined the table values, but it all feels like a lot of effort, so an easy compromise would be for you to provide me with the numbers you think are right and I'll just hard-code a table into the DLL to replace the existing calculation. Provide me up to some reasonable size (75 say?) and I'll just have the code double it for each successive point after the last one in the table.
Praetyre
King
Alright then, here's the revised table:
1: 50
2: 100
3: 250
4: 500
5: 750
6: 1000
7: 1500
8: 2000
9: 2500
10: 3000 (threshold for Town Hall and other buildings that used to require size 6, ideal max for Prehistoric era)
11: 4000
12: 5000
13: 7500
14: 10,000
15: 15,000
16: 20,000
17: 30,000
18: 40,000
19: 50,000
20: 60,000 (threshold for City Hall and other buildings that used to require size 13, ideal max for Ancient era)
21: 70,000
22: 80,000
23: 90,000
24: 100,000
25: 125,000
26: 150,000
27: 175,000
28: 200,000
29: 225,000
30: 250,000
31: 300,000
32: 350,000
33: 400,000
34: 450,000
35: 500,000
36: 550,000
37: 600,000
38: 650,000
39: 700,000
40: 750,000
41: 800,000
42: 850,000
43: 900,000
44: 950,000
45: 1,000,000 (threshold for Metropolitan Administration and other buildings that used to require size 25, ideal max for Classical/Medieval/Renaissance era)
46: 1,100,000
47: 1,200,000
48: 1,300,000
49: 1,400,000
50: 1,500,000
51: 1,600,000
52: 1,700,000
53: 1,800,000
54: 1,900,000
55: 2,000,000
56: 2,250,000
57: 2,500,000
58: 2,750,000
59: 3,000,000
60: 3,500,000
61: 4,000,000
62: 5,000,000
63: 6,000,000
64: 7,000,000
65: 8,000,000
66: 9,000,000
67: 10,000,000
68: 12,000,000 (ideal max for Industrial era)
69: 14,000,000
70: 16,000,000
71: 18,000,000
72: 20,000,000
73: 22,250,000
74: 25,000,000
75: 25,750,000
76: 30,000,000
77: 35,000,000
78: 40,000,000
79: 45,000,000
80: 50,000,000
81: 55,000,000
82: 60,000,000
83: 65,000,000
84: 70,000,000
85: 75,000,000
86: 80,000,000
87: 85,000,000
88: 90,000,000
89: 95,000,000
90: 100,000,000
91: 110,000,000
92: 120,000,000
93: 130,000,000
94: 140,000,000
95: 150,000,000
96: 160,000,000
97: 170,000,000
98: 180,000,000
99: 190,000,000
100: 200,000,000
If anyone gets beyond 100, even under my 10,000 turn scenario, I'll be astounded, but I'll be happy to bring it up to 200.
1: 50
2: 100
3: 250
4: 500
5: 750
6: 1000
7: 1500
8: 2000
9: 2500
10: 3000 (threshold for Town Hall and other buildings that used to require size 6, ideal max for Prehistoric era)
11: 4000
12: 5000
13: 7500
14: 10,000
15: 15,000
16: 20,000
17: 30,000
18: 40,000
19: 50,000
20: 60,000 (threshold for City Hall and other buildings that used to require size 13, ideal max for Ancient era)
21: 70,000
22: 80,000
23: 90,000
24: 100,000
25: 125,000
26: 150,000
27: 175,000
28: 200,000
29: 225,000
30: 250,000
31: 300,000
32: 350,000
33: 400,000
34: 450,000
35: 500,000
36: 550,000
37: 600,000
38: 650,000
39: 700,000
40: 750,000
41: 800,000
42: 850,000
43: 900,000
44: 950,000
45: 1,000,000 (threshold for Metropolitan Administration and other buildings that used to require size 25, ideal max for Classical/Medieval/Renaissance era)
46: 1,100,000
47: 1,200,000
48: 1,300,000
49: 1,400,000
50: 1,500,000
51: 1,600,000
52: 1,700,000
53: 1,800,000
54: 1,900,000
55: 2,000,000
56: 2,250,000
57: 2,500,000
58: 2,750,000
59: 3,000,000
60: 3,500,000
61: 4,000,000
62: 5,000,000
63: 6,000,000
64: 7,000,000
65: 8,000,000
66: 9,000,000
67: 10,000,000
68: 12,000,000 (ideal max for Industrial era)
69: 14,000,000
70: 16,000,000
71: 18,000,000
72: 20,000,000
73: 22,250,000
74: 25,000,000
75: 25,750,000
76: 30,000,000
77: 35,000,000
78: 40,000,000
79: 45,000,000
80: 50,000,000
81: 55,000,000
82: 60,000,000
83: 65,000,000
84: 70,000,000
85: 75,000,000
86: 80,000,000
87: 85,000,000
88: 90,000,000
89: 95,000,000
90: 100,000,000
91: 110,000,000
92: 120,000,000
93: 130,000,000
94: 140,000,000
95: 150,000,000
96: 160,000,000
97: 170,000,000
98: 180,000,000
99: 190,000,000
100: 200,000,000
If anyone gets beyond 100, even under my 10,000 turn scenario, I'll be astounded, but I'll be happy to bring it up to 200.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Praetyre
Should the Village Hall (1), Town Hall (6), City Council (13), Metropolitan Administration (25) and Capital Administration (30) city size requirement be changed?
If so what city size should they be set at?
Should the Village Hall (1), Town Hall (6), City Council (13), Metropolitan Administration (25) and Capital Administration (30) city size requirement be changed?
If so what city size should they be set at?
Praetyre
King
Noted above, sorry, just took me a while to catch it and edit in the figures.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
UPDATED Version 16, 23 Aug 3:00 am
List of changes here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7175010&postcount=2
List of changes here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7175010&postcount=2
I'll change the reported pop numbers to match the proposed table since that's cosmetic, but the changes to sizes required for building types need much more discussion first. Personally I disagree with them (as proposed anyway). 10 is too high for many of the buildings requiring 6 now. Doesn't matter during prehistoric, but in later eras not being able to push things like lighthouses into newish cities on islands hampers growth too much (just one example).
IF we could modify the size requirement on a building by era (obviously doable if we want to spend the effort) then I think having higher pop requirements in earlier eras and lowering them/removing them for certain builings in later eras might work.
IF we could modify the size requirement on a building by era (obviously doable if we want to spend the effort) then I think having higher pop requirements in earlier eras and lowering them/removing them for certain builings in later eras might work.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I am open to tweaking them, especially if i have to redo them all anyways. I was thinking the same thing when he updated his post. While many cities get to over 10 by ancient I think it would be too hard to get the harder things. We may need to make a scale by era for buildings.
Praetyre
King
I'm feeling in a "think outside the box" mood at the moment, so how about this to resolve the discrepancy without having my plan become a pain to synch with building requirements: Different starting city sizes depending on the Settler unit you use. Bands and Tribes give you 1, Settlers 6, Colonists 10 and Pioneers 14. Of course, a corresponding amount would have to be subtracted from the city they were built in, but that's just an extension of existing colonization mechanics. The only issue I can see is that the amount taken would be much greater in some cases than the amount put out, but otherwise you'd probably end up with huge balance issues with larger cities if you reckoned it literally from the cosmetic numbers.
They already do create cities of different sizes (though not THAT big a difference between the units).
I'm just leary of large changes to the actual mechanics without a lot of thought about the implications for things like the AI. Small changes (like tweaking the required sizes a BIT) would be fine, but radical chnages we need to be careful with.
I suggested it a few revisions ago, but what about fractional and per population, like the 0.15 
/ pop from an aqueduct but in reverse. Flat and penalties can be too onerous in the stone age, and trivial by the Renaissance, but fractional ones will always be relevant.
So instead of the Garbage Everywhere giving you a +2, you get a +0.5 / Pop. At size 4 that's just +2 , but a size 24 city is now +12 .
and per population, like the 0.15 / pop from an aqueduct but in reverse. Flat and penalties can be too onerous in the stone age, and trivial by the Renaissance, but fractional ones will always be relevant.So instead of the Garbage Everywhere giving you a +2
, you get a +0.5 / Pop. At size 4 that's just +2 , but a size 24 city is now +12 .This tabel is in the DLL I'll be pushing to SVN, and uploading to the patch thread later this afternoon (with entry 75 corrected in the obvious fashion)
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