Culture Group: Americans aren't American...

[amadeus]

Okay, I was just thinking about this -- doesn't it seem odd that the Americans are classified as "American," despite the fact that the architecture and looks of people are more like that of the natives than their European counterparts?

What I mean, is that a very strong majority of early Americans were, of course, European colonists...

Just my 2,000 rubles.

 

[Minuteman]

I concur, but I suppose Firaxis wanted to ensure that each culture group had adequate representation: 4 European, 3 Mediterranean, 3 Middle-Eastern, 3 Asian, and 3 American.

You may have noticed that Europe already has one more representative culture than the other groups. They probably didn't want to be accused of being too "Eurocentric" by some of the more sensitive/volitile elements in their target audience.

In addition, certain groups (and we know who they are) undoubtedly would have taken umbrage to America being classified as a Euorpean civ on the grounds that it would have effectively ignored their contributions to our culture.

It's a can of worms that I don't blame Firaxis for not wanting to open.

 

[Jimcat]

Yep, I think this is odd. But from a game design point of view, they did this so that the Americans would be part of the same "Global Culture" as the Aztecs and Iroquois, and thus be more likely to start near them. (The first few times I played the game, as America on a random map, I was wondering "Why do I always get the Aztecs for neighbors? Did they program some sense of history into the game?" Then I found the Civilopedia entry for Culture.)

If you'd rather have the Americans be European, just change their global culture in the editor. If you want them to start near the other "Native Americans" but have European architecture, well, someone more clever than myself will have to help you there.

I also think it's odd that the Zulu are classed as "Middle Eastern". Ermmm, sub-Saharan Africa is a hell of a long way from the Middle East, geographically and culturally. I guess they couldn't figure out where else to put them.

Oh yeah, and I always considered the Egyptians to be more "Middle Eastern" than "Greco-Roman". But that would leave the game with only two Greco-Roman civs. Hm, maybe swap them with the Persians.

 

[Minuteman]

These cultural inconsistencies could have been solved by the inclusion of one additional Mediterranean group (say the Carthaginians), and one addition Sub-Saharan culture (say the Mali). Then the Egyptians and Zulu could been have been properly classified. But we can't have everything, I suppose.

 

[Franz-Josef II]

America should be expelled from this game due to a certain lack of culture!!! )
what are these cowboys supposed to do with history????

 

[Furry Spatula]

well i sense some sarcasm here, but there is a simple reason America is in this game. We went over it before, They dont deserve to be in it along with Germany, but if you are trying to sell a game to a certain audience who better to include than them? I dont realy see why Germany was in this game as yes they had an influence, ok an incredibly strong influence on the 20th century, but the last time i checked the 20th century wasn't all of history. BUt do they sell lots of games in Germany? That may be one of the reasons.

Remember people, Money makes the world go 'round, well atleast money makes the gaming industry go 'round.

 

[amadeus]

Why were Germans in Civilization III? One word: Hitler.

 

[vega]

rofl...you are soo ignorant
read books of history and science, listen some classical music and doing much more.....and than come back, guy, and poste such crap

god bless the world

 

[EmperorSnefix]

Okay, I was just thinking about this -- doesn't it seem odd that the Americans are classified as "American," despite the fact that the architecture and looks of people are more like that of the natives than their European counterparts?

Ok, people, how many times are you going to bring this up?!? Is "America"(referring to the USA) "American"? Yes. It is "American" in the same way it is "Asian", "African", and "European". America is a melting pot.

We are the mutts, half-breeds, and whatever else you want to call us. Go ahead and despise us. Say we have a decadent culture. Say our country hasn't been around as long as yours. But I guarantee in another two hundred years the USA will be mentioned in history books. Probably a bit more than a footnote, too.

I know this will probably not end this debate, but I just wanted to get that of my chest.

And always remember... It's a game, there are many other things much more important than it.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by vega
rofl...you are soo ignorant
read books of history and science, listen some classical music and doing much more.....and than come back, guy, and poste such crap

Come on! If it weren't for the World Wars of the first half of the 20th century, Germany would be just like Italy or Spain -- not in Civ3.

 

[vega]

sorry for my english

if the world wars wasnt happent, america wouldnt be the todays "leading nation", the military for example was a bad joke before ww2, and there wouldnt be the genius of the jewish emigrants
the roots of america are in europe, i think, there is a strong european culture, not in ny or la (melting pot), but in utah or montana f.e.
together with france germany was (and is) the heart of europe and there is a strong german influence at all in the history of that great continent

bismark unified the different royal dynasties and that germany was strong as never before (in science, military or culture), but before that happened, there was a cultural variety that wrote history and that IS definitively an lagacy of mankind, goethe, schiller or bach for example

your country is more german influenced as you think...for example the first trade agreement between a europe country and the usa was with germany or whats with the great prussian influence at the civilian wars?

thats so disgusting that you americans think germany = hitler...what the hell learn you at scool? only your national anthem or what? never forget your own european history, ex-europeans

god bless the world

 

[Franz-Josef II]

vega seems to know of what he is talking about and he's right, thats for sure!
...But it would be really interesting to experience what the average high-schools in america are like. Don't you learn anything about "real" history? I don't mean this national propaganda made by this pseudo-democratic "Proporz", as we would call it...!

 

[EmperorSnefix]

History is written by the winners, so you're going to have a hard time getting a completly unbiased source. As for the public America high schools... Yeah, they're bad. Half of them couldn't tell you where Ukraine is on a map. Fortunatly, I was home-schooled from sixth through the night grade(age 11-14), so l didn't "learn" what a majority of my peers did. Most of it involved condoms, bananas, and sweaty people, anyways. Now I'm a Senior at a private school where I get told how good being a baptist is, as opposed to being told how good being an American is. Oh well.

Real knowledge is only optained when you realize you don't know everything and care about learning about whatever it is. That's how I can say I know more than the average person my age, and not be egotistical about it. Most people I know are happy to go on through life without learning the truth about anything. Ignorance really is bliss to them. My age in case you were wondering is seventeen.

 

[hzm]

I don't go a day without being called fat and stupid by a european because of our damn education system and stupid youth.

Tired of it! I know I know that germany does not equal hitler.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by EmperorSnefix
We are the mutts, half-breeds, and whatever else you want to call us. Go ahead and despise us. Say we have a decadent culture. Say our country hasn't been around as long as yours. But I guarantee in another two hundred years the USA will be mentioned in history books. Probably a bit more than a footnote, too.

rmsharpe is American.

 

[EmperorSnefix]

I know rmsharpe is American. I was chipping in my two cents about the whole debate that has been going on for awhile. I was slightly irked about Franz comments, no matter how true they may have been. I guess I'm just the typical reactionary American.

 

[swattek]

Originally posted by Franz-Josef II
America should be expelled from this game due to a certain lack of culture!!! )
what are these cowboys supposed to do with history????

As you smugly denounce the culture of America you play a game programmed in Maryland on an OS from California. You were probably wearing levis and drinking a coke while you typed. Jackass.

 

[swattek]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
Why were Germans in Civilization III? One word: Hitler.

Perhaps you never heard of Martin Luther and the Great Reformation. Maybe you didn't know that Bach et al were Germans. Perhaps it is even possible that you never heard of Frederick the Great or didn't know that Germanic tribes helped to bring Rome to its knees.

On the other hand, I must agree that Reagan was our greatest president.

 

[swattek]

Originally posted by Franz-Josef II
vega seems to know of what he is talking about and he's right, thats for sure!
...But it would be really interesting to experience what the average high-schools in america are like. Don't you learn anything about "real" history? I don't mean this national propaganda made by this pseudo-democratic "Proporz", as we would call it...!

I can't speak for all Americans, but assuming that my high school was 'average,' European culture and history was not emphasized as it should have been. Instead we spent more time studying less influential cultures such as the aboriginal Australians or some other insignificant tribe of near naked, illiterate, hunter-gatherers. Then we are told that all cultures are equal or some such nonsense. We don't have normal calendar months like February, March, April, May,or June. Instead we have Black History Month, Women's History Month, Earth Month, Lesbian-Left-Handed-Eskimo-Midget-Albino Month, and Great Jewish Sports Legends Month. Political correctness has killed public education here and it is coming to a school near you. Fortunately, some of our parents decided that schooling wasn't going to get in the way of their childrens education.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by swattek
You were probably wearing levis and drinking a coke while you typed.

Maybe that was what he meant!
You shouldn't take comments like that too serious...