culture wonders

[Thunderbrd]

Also I think as long as the recent suggestion of CypressC is taken account of (multiple cultures will set up the rev level, especially as long as they are founded in the same city (better call it province maybe) as another culture), I gladly withdraw my earlier suggestion that 1 culture per city shall be max as gameoption.

Yeah... I've always had this in mind for once the 1D property feature was developed - overlapping conflicting cultures have been a huge source of revolution sentiment since the dawn of human kind.

Sure but how do add building options to units? I have never done that before.

Our animals serve as great examples.
from Subdue_Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml, UNIT_SUBDUED_AARDVARK:

			<Buildings>
				<Building>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_GOVENORS_PETS</BuildingType>
					<bBuilding>1</bBuilding>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_GOVENORS_MENAGERIE</BuildingType>
					<bBuilding>1</bBuilding>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_ANIMAL_TOTEM_ANTS</BuildingType>
					<bBuilding>1</bBuilding>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_EARTH_MYTH</BuildingType>
					<bBuilding>1</bBuilding>
				</Building>
				<Building>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_ZOO</BuildingType>
					<bBuilding>1</bBuilding>
				</Building>
			</Buildings>

Obviously prereqs are established in the buildings themselves and adhered to by the use of this <Building> tag.

Could you set up the files for a test one like for the Neanderthal Culture (BUILDINGCLASS_NEANDERTHAL_EMBASSY) and then I can fill in the rest.

It'd take me a little bit to catch up on some things before I could commit to that - work has become enormously demanding and I'm still trying desperately to get to a goal I'd hoped to reach by the end of January (my Traits design).

Plus, as Koshling points out, there's some issues with purely making Artists handle this that need to be sorted out. We may want to make the FIRST cultures (Prehistoric age) beyond those base continental ones be assigned with a sort of auto-build mechanism? Or perhaps, yes, a new special "Forefather" Unit that is given for free at Cultural Identity (in the capital) that can initiate a new culture, and nothing else - the Prophet AI would work fine for that. Then from there give the rest to the earned Great Artists.

I CAN pause in my efforts to establish the game option... in fact I'll add it to my weekend's list now. I'll put it in as off and invisible by default so you can simply tweak the GameOptionInfos file whenever you want to test it and once you feel its ready you can turn it visible for the rest of us.

I am not sure how optional setting work. If they get their own mod folder or they just get an additional file in the same mod folder or if it edits the files that have the original info.

Please point me in the right direction on how its done.

Unlike most of our modder information linked threads, the system was restructured and thus the pertinent information in this thread is at the end where AIAndy explains how to use his system for replacements. At post #22, he begins to explain what he's done (here!). Check that out and see if it answers your questions. The concept of the option edits is explained at the beginning of that thread along with a bunch of stuff on the way I'd originally implemented it.

I believe, however, that buildings still need to be made available for these replacement definitions.

BTW, they don't NEED to be in modular files but they can be. It doesn't really matter. Basically you're making a new version of the original and telling its definition to replace the original if the indicated game option is on. The replacing entry can be included in the CORE file if you want.

AIAndy's method actually allows for other conditions to make the replacement come into play I believe. But for the most part, its being used for Game Options as triggers.

If you want to see some examples in XML of how its being done now, ls612's Trait set is entirely driven by this mechanism - his module isn't so large that these examples can't be easily found.

Can it be easily made that instead of a great Artist a for each Culture specific unit or even a certain number of units must be comitted to the place the culture can be founded in as long as res and tech requirements are met?

Easily? No. Possible yes but it's not a light adjustment so for the 'just to test how it goes' it wouldn't be worth it.

Can it be easily made that the ability to settle GP only comes with certain tech (Artists can settle in cities after Music for example) to prevent AI to misuse GP in the early stages when they would not breed enough fluently to meet the windows of opportunity.

Yeah by making those unbalancing missions have a tech prereq. Perhaps that's the way to go? Make early artists less capable overall? hmm... even a small culture blast would be very valuable to a developing leader though, baiting the player into a bad decision to waste his immediate chance at his first culture. That added set of options would not benefit the future of the culture structure that somewhat depends on all civs GETTING one around the point of Cultural Identity anyhow.

Can it be easily made that cultures would be advancing/"upgradeable" much like building pormotions (if that can be merged), for example: train a certain number of specific units or build enough specific buildings of a certain type - much like inherent quests

It's somewhat the intent of the 1D system to help

Can it be easily made
(ok, ok I stop that nothing of this can be easily made I guess)
that the success of a culture can be measured by certain patterns of the stats?
Also if recent main pray (- the most killed unit) for example are rabitts and bears then you receive a bonus vs the two, as your people know how to deal with them. So the actual strength of the units would change over time. Or you even could get morale drops if you suicide some units too often... why you would have to change your tactis from time to time.

See the Cultural Heritage project thread. I believe it does encapsulate this concept effectively.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

Yeah I think the consensus is that this is a cool idea for an option but we should put it on the TODO list for now since there are other more important projects we could do.

I mean the culture system still works and nothing is broken. So this is more of an icing on the cake.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok. Agreed. I'll put this stuff a little bit further down in the priority list then.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Many things are being discussed all over the place which interact with stuff I want to get into C2C but I move slowly and the changes happen to C2C which require I change what I want to do slowing me down further.

My first GP is usually an artist if you ignore the (over) abundance of Great Generals.

I want to make a major change to the religions. So major that only the original BtS religions (Hindu, Buddhist, Islam, Tao, Jew, and Christian) exist as foundable on the tech tree. Maybe Shinto also. In the early period each develops it's own religion using G Prophets to consolidate and make directional changes. These can then develop into a named religion and then at Monotheism and Polytheism change again. The splintering of the later religions can be handled using ideas from Sevo's mod. The late religions (Bahai, Morman and Scientology) would still be foundable as would the post human religions. Sevo's mod has religious bandits, terrorists and sleeper cells just to name a few.

I want to include much more of the WLBO mod which has functions to expel those pesky thieves etc. It also has some interesting diplomacy and terrorist options. It also has some interesting actions for those thieves.

Crime is rather "uninteresting" at the moment so I would like to add in stuff from the Bad Person mod. This will require units owned by the player but not controlled by the player to spread mob influence throughout your nation and beyond. Actually iirc the original Immigrant unit was supposed to be owned by the player but not controlled by them ie they should start automated (AI in python) and should not be selectable by the player so that they can move to neighbouring peaceful nations and settle there.

 

[strategyonly]

Sevo's mod has religious bandits, terrorists and sleeper cells just to name a few.

I want to include much more of the WLBO mod which has functions to expel those pesky thieves etc. It also has some interesting diplomacy and terrorist options. It also has some interesting actions for those thieves.

Crime is rather "uninteresting" at the moment so I would like to add in stuff from the Bad Person mod. This will require units owned by the player but not controlled by the player to spread mob influence throughout your nation and beyond. Actually iirc the original Immigrant unit was supposed to be owned by the player but not controlled by them ie they should start automated (AI in python) and should not be selectable by the player so that they can move to neighbouring peaceful nations and settle there.

Sounds great. Playtyping just put a modcomp start in that area.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Many things are being discussed all over the place which interact with stuff I want to get into C2C but I move slowly and the changes happen to C2C which require I change what I want to do slowing me down further.

My first GP is usually an artist if you ignore the (over) abundance of Great Generals.

I want to make a major change to the religions. So major that only the original BtS religions (Hindu, Buddhist, Islam, Tao, Jew, and Christian) exist as foundable on the tech tree. Maybe Shinto also. In the early period each develops it's own religion using G Prophets to consolidate and make directional changes. These can then develop into a named religion and then at Monotheism and Polytheism change again. The splintering of the later religions can be handled using ideas from Sevo's mod. The late religions (Bahai, Morman and Scientology) would still be foundable as would the post human religions. Sevo's mod has religious bandits, terrorists and sleeper cells just to name a few.

I want to include much more of the WLBO mod which has functions to expel those pesky thieves etc. It also has some interesting diplomacy and terrorist options. It also has some interesting actions for those thieves.

Crime is rather "uninteresting" at the moment so I would like to add in stuff from the Bad Person mod. This will require units owned by the player but not controlled by the player to spread mob influence throughout your nation and beyond. Actually iirc the original Immigrant unit was supposed to be owned by the player but not controlled by them ie they should start automated (AI in python) and should not be selectable by the player so that they can move to neighbouring peaceful nations and settle there.

Obviously we need to effectively communicate to harmonize our concepts and plans so we aren't walking over each other's goals (or at least can establish options if we have great enough disagreement on points.) I love most of what you just said and think it would be very compatable with most of what we'd like to do. Interestingly enough, you didn't say anything in those goal lists that indicated the project on the discussion table would be problematic for ya. I can see how the ideas I have for Law Enforcement units would be something we'd have to discuss exactly where one idea ends and the others you're suggesting begin and how those can harmonize or reshape the plan on both ends.

BTW, really love the idea on the Immigrant! But I'd want it to have some strength to at least fight off animals during such a transition between nations.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Crime is rather "uninteresting"

Well most stuff has been on hold since you said you had ideas from WLBO that you wanted to add that would cover the ideas like Terrorists and Mob stuff that we wanted to add for awhile now.

 

[pi4t]

Bit of a bump, but is there a way to turn off the requirement to have a civilization from the same continent as the culture? Especially with the new traits concepts (and the fact that barbarian cities don't appear to consider cultural placement when deciding which civilisation they emerge as), I can't help but feel that there's very little relation, beyond the name, between my 'Italy' and the real life civilization, and am unsure why the ability to build non European cultures is denied.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Bit of a bump, but is there a way to turn off the requirement to have a civilization from the same continent as the culture? Especially with the new traits concepts (and the fact that barbarian cities don't appear to consider cultural placement when deciding which civilisation they emerge as),

Something change recently so that barbarians that become civs don't get a base culture. Let's restate that. When a barbarian city becomes a nation it becomes that nation but seems to assimilate barbarians because when you conquer that city it does not have a base culture.

I can't help but feel that there's very little relation, beyond the name, between my 'Italy' and the real life civilization, and am unsure why the ability to build non European cultures is denied.

In C2C there is no connect between the name of the nation you start with and what you end up as. Changing all the names of the civs to generic European_I,...,European_XX, Asian_I,... is a lot of work.

 

[strategyonly]

In C2C there is no connect between the name of the nation you start with and what you end up as. Changing all the names of the civs to generic European_I,...,European_XX, Asian_I,... is a lot of work.

I would agree, but it does make more sense, but then again gameplayers LIKE their "country" shown, as do I.

Like DH said, it took me around 2-3 months, 8 hour days, to get the extra added Era in before Ancient Era. Waaaay too many files and python etc to content with.

 

[pi4t]

I think, probably due to lack of sleep (this mod is too addictive!) that I didn't make myself clear.

Something change recently so that barbarians that become civs don't get a base culture. Let's restate that. When a barbarian city becomes a nation it becomes that nation but seems to assimilate barbarians because when you conquer that city it does not have a base culture.

I wasn't so much referring to what (if any) culture they have. I was pointing out that if a player plays with a world with few AIs, but many barbarian cities ready to become civilisations, then there is no way (even with culturally linked starts turned on) to ensure that the 'Asian' civilisations, for example, will even be on the same continent (so far as I can tell).

In C2C there is no connect between the name of the nation you start with and what you end up as. Changing all the names of the civs to generic European_I,...,European_XX, Asian_I,... is a lot of work.

Again, I wasn't arguing against keeping genuine names (I agree with strategyonly: I quite like having a genuine name, and 'European_I' wouldn't be very interesting). What I'm arguing for is to have (as an option) any civilisation being able to build any culture wonder. As far as I can tell, I'm unable as a European civilisation to build any culture which comes from outside Europe IRL. I can't make the Indian culture, for instance, even if I fulfil all the other requirements, because I need culture: Asian. Given that civilisations are unlikely to be in the same positions relative to each other, it seems...odd to block a player from being able to make what many of his neighbours can, because their civilisation isn't from that area in real life.

 

[Pajpak]

Then you just conquer one of your neighbour cities and assimilate they're basic culture.
Also, if the limits on cultures were lifted, you'll probably have crazy multicultural country in ancient era (as opposed to later in game, which I also think is a bit of a problem)

 

[pi4t]

Well, I think the rest of this thread was about ways to reduce the problem of too many cultures. My point is that it makes no sense (to me) that I, or another player, has to conquer its neighbouring cities to be able to make certain, arbitrary (for the world the game has created) cultures.

To take an extreme example, supposing I play a game on a GEM with random starting locations? And I as, say, the Aztecs, appear in England? Why should I have to conquer the nearest European city in order to build culture: England? My understanding is that the culture represents the civilisation developing along the lines of how that culture came to be in real life, by being presented with the same situation.

The issue is the same with randomly generated maps, so it's no good just saying 'don't mix up the civilisations on a GEM'. If I find myself on an England-ish island, in a position where the English culture would be useful to me, why can I not make the English culture without going to war and conquering a civilisation with a European name?

 

[Flinx]

To take an extreme example, supposing I play a game on a GEM with random starting locations?
....
My understanding is that the culture represents the civilisation developing along the lines of how that culture came to be in real life, by being presented with the same situation.

Wanting the civilization along the lines of how that culture came to real life do not play GEM with random starting locations.

Plain and simple that solution, isn't it?

Aside from your complaint i think the cultures are more some flavour to the game than a simulation of how the different civilizations emerged.

 

[JosEPh_II]

To the Team,
Sounds like you guys have needed a Design Document for sometime now. A common list of goals, components, and procedures. It does not "need" to be posted here in the forum but distributed amongst yourselves.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

To the Team,
Sounds like you guys have needed a Design Document for sometime now. A common list of goals, components, and procedures. It does not "need" to be posted here in the forum but distributed amongst yourselves. JosEPh

HUH what you say, whats that??

btw Joe your "friend" is visiting us again

 

[Snofru1]

While the culture system as it is is not very realistic (imho) and maybe also lacks some inner logic I think it is fun and adds to gameplay. And that´s most important about it...

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

Yes, it is kind of arbitrary to limit English Culture Wonder to having Native Culture: European, but then again, being "English" on any map other than an Earth-based map is entirely arbitrary anyway. Odds are that they would come up with their own word that wouldn't resemble any on Earth, but we use the Earth ones because we can recognize them. It adds to the flavor even if it's not 'realistic' as such.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yes, it is kind of arbitrary to limit English Culture Wonder to having Native Culture: European, but then again, being "English" on any map other than an Earth-based map is entirely arbitrary anyway. Odds are that they would come up with their own word that wouldn't resemble any on Earth, but we use the Earth ones because we can recognize them. It adds to the flavor even if it's not 'realistic' as such.

You have to be careful when you go down that rabbit hole. We can only know from what we have experienced. This is why even when you extrapolate on a fictional culture it still has elements from real cultures.

In civ4 we have wonders and civs and everything else from real life. Even the "punk" stuff is from literature based on those topics. In short C2C when done on a random world becomes more like a melting pot for existing ideas. How it plays out will always be different but the elements will always be the same and based around historical Earth stuff.

Note we also have some elements of synergy which pushes the odds into a more historical favor. Such as leaders have a favorite religion based on their RL religion. If you have some cultures then buildings wonders from that civ become easier to do (in the culture wonder is in the same city). And other such synergies that don't force but do encourage some more historically accurate elements to manifest more often.