Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[Leoreth]

That's really weird. Maybe the AI code doesn't recognize the 12 resource limit.

I think I need to put some additional thought into the relative gain calculation. The point isn't really to have one particular AI to spend a lot only to weaken you, even if it recognizes that situation correctly.

Also, did you see my post about Mongolia's core area and the issues with it?

Already addressed in my working copy.

 

[Leoreth]

Adjusted resource trade AI again with the last update, feedback appreciated.

 

[Xfactor]

So indonesia is gonna be UHV playable again

 

[asewland]

The weights must be very, very off. This happened with my Chinese Vassal last night:

I wanted some grain resources from Hongwu to bolster my cereal corporation, and straight up asked him what he wanted:



I think to myself, it's strange he went for just money. but that's still really cheap. So I offered him one resource, asked him what he wanted, and this happened:



I mean, what? The cotton was worth -89 gold per turn?

When they pull BS like that, I usually just invade them and take the resources.

#economicimperialism

 

[Leoreth]

Some last minute civic balance adjustments:
- Autocracy: remove espionage bonus
- Theocracy: reduce happiness bonus to +1
- Standing Army: remove army production modifier

Thoughts?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Some last minute civic balance adjustments:
- Autocracy: remove espionage bonus
- Theocracy: reduce happiness bonus to +1
- Standing Army: remove army production modifier

Thoughts?

Since when does Autocracy have an espionage bonus? Guess that explains why people think it's OP these days.

I'd decrease the army production modifier to 10 or 15%, but not remove it entirely.

 

[Publicola]

I'd decrease the army production modifier to 10 or 15%, but not remove it entirely.

Absolutely agree. It's hard to imagine a 'Standing Army' civic that represents the steady professionalization of combat that doesn't provide a bonus to producing army units. Make it smaller if it affects game balance, but eliminating it entirely would be like eliminating the 'no state religion' component of the Secularism civic.

 

[Xfactor]

rip theocracy best early game civic

 

[Leoreth]

The production modifier was part of the initial impetus for the Standing Army civic, but it's just too powerful overall, and in the late game unit production is very fast anyway, so that problem is also partially addressed.

10% feels like a too minute bonus to be included.

 

[Power_of_Beer]

I think Theocracy and Monarchy are perfectly fine atm.

 

[Leoreth]

I've heard from many people that Dynasticism is comparatively weak, and Theocracy and Autocracy usually the preferable option.

 

[ezzlar]

Maybe Dynasticism should be lowered to max +3 happiness? It is one of the few ways to get early happiness and if the difference is too large Theocracy might be a bad choice overall.

If the game continues to develop in this way I might for the first time be forced to touch the cultural slider for some happiness! *scary*

And for trading resources. I think the AI often nowdays requests decent amounts/rare resources, it could use some fine tuning. But it also offers too much when they need the resource, this amount could be lowered. Compare to tech trading, if you want something, they ask a lot. If you offer something, you get little.

 

[ezzlar]

Some random ideas without so much balance consideration:

Levy armies: Remove produced with food and add a +20% land unit produce speed
Standing army: Experience bonus and ability to draft (1?)
Fanaticism: No non-state religion spread and double construction speed for religious buildings
Vassalage: Lower happiness bonus to +1 for castle
Capitalism: Remove +2 commerce for town and give double construction speed of bank
Warrior code: Remove -50% war weariness
Mercenaries: Add +1 happiness for barracks
Egalitarianism: Change +1 hammer to +2 commerce
Dynasticism: Max +3 happiness and double construction speed of castle

 

[Cosmos1985]

If the game continues to develop in this way I might for the first time be forced to touch the cultural slider for some happiness! *scary*

I really love the idea of having to use the cultural slider at least once in a while, whether that means buffing it somehow or just you know making it comparatively stronger. I think I've used in once or twice ever, in very very special situations. Does anybody use it regularly? I may just have forgotten about it and not being aware of it's situational usefulness.

 

[Shadow Warlord]

I've heard from many people that Dynasticism is comparatively weak, and Theocracy and Autocracy usually the preferable option.

With Autocracy i think the draft number could be reduced or spread out to other civics. All i know is the AI adopts autocracy most of the time, which means it either needs to be nerfed or the other civics buffed so the AI finds them more valuable (or their values changed, idk).

As i mentioned in the other thread, Turkey already has a drating bonus thanks to their UP, so when they get Autocracy they become a military monster.

 

[Leoreth]

Maybe Dynasticism should be lowered to max +3 happiness? It is one of the few ways to get early happiness and if the difference is too large Theocracy might be a bad choice overall.

If the game continues to develop in this way I might for the first time be forced to touch the cultural slider for some happiness! *scary*

Yes, reducing the amount of available happiness is part of the goal here. Actually I'm also considering to reduce the +1 happiness from Castles at Vassalage.

Don't know if Dynasticism should be further weakened. I think it should be the dedicated happiness civic in the Government column, so I don't want to dilute it further.

And for trading resources. I think the AI often nowdays requests decent amounts/rare resources, it could use some fine tuning. But it also offers too much when they need the resource, this amount could be lowered. Compare to tech trading, if you want something, they ask a lot. If you offer something, you get little.

Good to know things are more balanced now, and I'll try to make the AI more cheap when asking for stuff.

Some random ideas without so much balance consideration:

Levy armies: Remove produced with food and add a +20% land unit produce speed
Standing army: Experience bonus and ability to draft (1?)
Fanaticism: No non-state religion spread and double construction speed for religious buildings
Vassalage: Lower happiness bonus to +1 for castle
Capitalism: Remove +2 commerce for town and give double construction speed of bank
Warrior code: Remove -50% war weariness
Mercenaries: Add +1 happiness for barracks
Egalitarianism: Change +1 hammer to +2 commerce
Dynasticism: Max +3 happiness and double construction speed of castle

- I like the food production thing at Levy Armies, it's unique and quite useful for the civs it should be useful for (e.g. France in the Middle Ages)
- Standing Army is already very powerful
- religious buildings speed is impossible unfortunately without DLL changes
- Vassalage: as I said above, I'll probably do that as well
- Capitalism seems weak without the commerce bonus
- Warrior Code's major effect is the war weariness? Could imagine unit production here though. That's more relevant in the early game
- Mercenaries too is already quite useful
- Egalitarianism: interesting, would need to think about it, +2 commerce is a lot though

I really love the idea of having to use the cultural slider at least once in a while, whether that means buffing it somehow or just you know making it comparatively stronger. I think I've used in once or twice ever, in very very special situations. Does anybody use it regularly? I may just have forgotten about it and not being aware of it's situational usefulness.

I removed the inherent happiness from culture, but with Theatres you still get a lot. I use often when war weariness starts to overwhelm me, but with somewhat reduced overall happiness I'd also like to see it used to balance corporation unhappiness.

 

[Leoreth]

With Autocracy i think the draft number could be reduced or spread out to other civics. All i know is the AI adopts autocracy most of the time, which means it either needs to be nerfed or the other civics buffed so the AI finds them more valuable (or their values changed, idk).

As i mentioned in the other thread, Turkey already has a drating bonus thanks to their UP, so when they get Autocracy they become a military monster.

It could be a good idea to just outright reduce it (note that Autocracy has a base draft rate of 2, which comes out as 3 due to the map size. Reducing base rate to 1 should result in an effective 2).

 

[Eric Cartmenez]

Say Leoreth wouldn't it be possible for Islamic civs (Arabia, Turkey, Mughals and Mali perhaps) to replace Cuirassier with Camel Gunner unit, and French Musketman for Musketeer unit, I mean just unit graphics, otherwise the strength and movement shouldn't be different compared to original (actual) units.

 

[ezzlar]

Yes, reducing the amount of available happiness is part of the goal here. Actually I'm also considering to reduce the +1 happiness from Castles at Vassalage.

Don't know if Dynasticism should be further weakened. I think it should be the dedicated happiness civic in the Government column, so I don't want to dilute it further.


Good to know things are more balanced now, and I'll try to make the AI more cheap when asking for stuff.


- I like the food production thing at Levy Armies, it's unique and quite useful for the civs it should be useful for (e.g. France in the Middle Ages)
- Standing Army is already very powerful
- religious buildings speed is impossible unfortunately without DLL changes
- Vassalage: as I said above, I'll probably do that as well
- Capitalism seems weak without the commerce bonus
- Warrior Code's major effect is the war weariness? Could imagine unit production here though. That's more relevant in the early game
- Mercenaries too is already quite useful
- Egalitarianism: interesting, would need to think about it, +2 commerce is a lot though


I removed the inherent happiness from culture, but with Theatres you still get a lot. I use often when war weariness starts to overwhelm me, but with somewhat reduced overall happiness I'd also like to see it used to balance corporation unhappiness.

Maybe I should explain my reasoning:

Warrior code: A so strong buff to war weariness isnt really needed early game. It would be useful mid/late game but then you would use a very old civic. And -50% is comparable to Dome of the Rock, a wonder effect. A warrior code should maybe give a small experience buff instead? But double production speed for barracks and stable are already very good since it is an early civic. And add the conqueror stability bonus. I think the civic is too good for too long.

Standing army: Only giving +2 exp seems a bit dull. Only drafting maybe? It is a standing army after all.

Theocracy: Double construction speed for temples, monasteries and cathedrals? That wouldnt require DLL changing?

Capitalism: It gives both +10% global commerce and the ability to insta rush buildings with gold. That is quite good. And even without the town bonus it is still superior to Agrarianism and Slavery. The late game hammer bonus from Industrialism isnt worth much since you probably have enough production already.

Levy armies: Never used it actually. Why would I want to have my cities in permanent no-growth mode? But it is a good civic if it keeps the AI locked in no growth!

Mercenaries: Never used it. My gold is needed for research. I can usually produce enough units with hammers without my economy being crippled by the mercenary promotion. A typical AI civic.

Egalitarianism: The late game hammer bonus isnt worth anything (like industrialism). The late game happiness bonus isnt worth a lot neither.

This is of course my way of playing. It might not be good general rules of thumb.

 

[Leoreth]

Maybe I should explain my reasoning:

Warrior code: A so strong buff to war weariness isnt really needed early game. It would be useful mid/late game but then you would use a very old civic. And -50% is comparable to Dome of the Rock, a wonder effect. A warrior code should maybe give a small experience buff instead? But double production speed for barracks and stable are already very good since it is an early civic. And add the conqueror stability bonus. I think the civic is too good for too long.

You have a point there, I'll think about it.

Standing army: Only giving +2 exp seems a bit dull. Only drafting maybe? It is a standing army after all.

+2 experience is already powerful. I feel that SA is usually the standard choice so it should not be too powerful.

Theocracy: Double construction speed for temples, monasteries and cathedrals? That wouldnt require DLL changing?

Only by awkwardly specifying every one of these buildings on its own.

Capitalism: It gives both +10% global commerce and the ability to insta rush buildings with gold. That is quite good. And even without the town bonus it is still superior to Agrarianism and Slavery. The late game hammer bonus from Industrialism isnt worth much since you probably have enough production already.

In that case I'd rather remove the flat modifier.

Levy armies: Never used it actually. Why would I want to have my cities in permanent no-growth mode? But it is a good civic if it keeps the AI locked in no growth!

Well you don't build units all the time, right?