CurtSibling
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Eran of Arcadia said:
Seems like a good way to round out this mini-debate.
Let' move on...
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Curt's Invitation - Prove God Exists!
- Thread starter CurtSibling
- Start date
Seems like a good way to round out this mini-debate.
Let' move on...
.
Narz
keeping it real
But you ARE the evidence Curt.CurtSibling said:
(see post 39)
CurtSibling
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You slay me, Narz.
I can imagine the horrible irony of being considered a messiah in the future.
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I can imagine the horrible irony of being considered a messiah in the future.
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CurtSibling
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civ2 said:CurtSibling
YES, SIR!
I'll think of some more proof in the near future.
I hope...
The basic "problem" is that believing is based mostly on inner feelings rather than any "proof".
It is a problem that you face, not the non-believer...
We 'heathens' have already settled that there is no need to follow a god.
I wish religious posters to face the dilemma of their ideology being taken seriously, without proof.
I look forward to your evidence.
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CurtSibling
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I duly re-invite our religious posters to explain why they wish us to accept their beliefs.
Why should we follow a god without even a shred of proof....Explain!
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Why should we follow a god without even a shred of proof....Explain!
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CurtSibling
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I have to go for a few hours, to deal with various concerns.
But I will back at midnight (UK time) - I expect some good evidence on show.
See you then!
But I will back at midnight (UK time) - I expect some good evidence on show.
See you then!
CurtSibling said:
Even though this wasn't directed at me, I'd like to take a stab at these.
Do I respect your ideologies? Maybe, maybe not. Whether I do or not is unimportant as long as I respect your right to hold such beliefs/ideologies.
Do I respect Osama's? Nope. Mass murderes, terrorists, criminal elements, and so forth lose any right to an expectation to have even their right to hold their beliefs and/or ideologies respected.
Should courtesy extend to beliefs? Sure, why not? Common courtesy and respect for other people is nice, and being nice to the nice is nice.
CurtSibling said:
I wish others to accept my beliefs because I feel they are correct and that they will in the long run make anyone who accepts them happier.
I don't think anyone should follow them without a shred of proof. If anyone honestly feels that God does not exist, then the right thing to do is not believe. I feel that I have "evidence", not proof in the normal sense of the word but enough for me to believe. But without this, I would be agnostic.
Ringo Kid
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Best proof I can think of is that every society I am aware of has believed, as if its a part of us, something we understand without knowing. Different forms, different methods of worship, but it seems to be built in to human beings. Of course you could be more highly evolved than the rest of the human race, and reached a level of knowledge that surpasses the other 99.99 per cent of humanity. Logic would seem to indicate though, since you are so overwhelmingly outnumbered, that I am right, and you are wrong. Is that Absolute proof? No. But the existence of God is not even the most interesting question, the interesting question to me is, what do we do about it.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
As various people have pointed out, faith comes from the inside, not from the outside. There will never be any evidence for the existence of God, because faith in God is based on feelings.. A feeling that there is something larger than you out there is one of them, I reckon.
People want extraordinary things to be true and they put faith in these wants & needs because it makes the world make more sense to them.
A belief in God is similar to a belief in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, angels, etc. There is no evidence to support any of it, yet some people just know that some of these things exist.
Fortunately I am of the position that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so even though I do get the feeling that "there must be something greater out there", I do not attribute that feeling to any sort of evidence of a God existing.
People want extraordinary things to be true and they put faith in these wants & needs because it makes the world make more sense to them.
A belief in God is similar to a belief in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, angels, etc. There is no evidence to support any of it, yet some people just know that some of these things exist.
Fortunately I am of the position that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so even though I do get the feeling that "there must be something greater out there", I do not attribute that feeling to any sort of evidence of a God existing.
Bozo Erectus
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Evidence is like the sense of touch to the blind.
Kozmos
Jew Detective
He exists....becuause my mom told me he exists.
My mom >>>> j00!
My mom >>>> j00!
CurtSibling
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civ2 said:
These are called anomalies, and are only considered divine by the zealous.
If you can prove the logical evidence behind any miracle, please do.
I'll be back later to see how you got on.
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CivCube
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Clearly, this argument needs to have religion taken out of the picture. I do believe in God, but I don't necessarily believe in religion. A man-made institution cannot possibly describe in full an infinite, universal consciousness.
How does God exist? The same way He doesn't exist...from the viewpoints of many, God is at once existent and non-existent. It's like looking at the universe; one may see it as merely a bunch of neutrons and electrons, colliding with each other to create matter. However, if you look at the whole, you see a unified, cohesive whole, with everything working together to create this universe, this existence.
Guess what? It's the same definition, either way. It's all in how you look at it.
You see the whole of creation as a collection of sentient beings. I see that, and more. I see a greater Sentience made up of all these sentient beings.
Of course, all these beings are still there. It's all in how you look at things.
How does God exist? The same way He doesn't exist...from the viewpoints of many, God is at once existent and non-existent. It's like looking at the universe; one may see it as merely a bunch of neutrons and electrons, colliding with each other to create matter. However, if you look at the whole, you see a unified, cohesive whole, with everything working together to create this universe, this existence.
Guess what? It's the same definition, either way. It's all in how you look at it.
You see the whole of creation as a collection of sentient beings. I see that, and more. I see a greater Sentience made up of all these sentient beings.
Of course, all these beings are still there. It's all in how you look at things.
CurtSibling
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A truly sensible concept! Nice work, CC!
civ2
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CurtSibling
I'm not speaking about "obvious" miracles like splitting of the see.
I'm speaking of situations when it seems there is no salvation - and then it comes from nowhere - "coincident".
There are too many such "coincidents" to think it's... coincident!
Many people nowadays can tell of such episodes in their own lives - not read somewhere.
How would you explain eg. such episode:
A particular (probably American) Jew was in the army.
He wasn't very religious - rather opposite.
Once, during the war (Vietnam? I don't remember exactly but it was quite recently), he went outside the military camp (or how is the place where soldiers gather between battles called?).
Of course he was on a mission - but that's not the point.
So he went out into the forest and walked for a while.
Suddenly he saw a big poisonous snake (cobra I think) just in front of him "standing" at half its length.
He froze with fear and prepared to be bitten.
But the snake didn't attack - just was swinging from side to side.
The soldier stood motionless and this continued on.
He began thinking about his entire life - that he was Jewish but never too religious.
He thought about his family and friends.
About his now-at-stake future.
Suddenly he decided that if somehow he survives the incident - he'll live a truly Jewish life.
And what do you think - the snake suddenly sprang away and disappeared between the bushes.
The whole incident took some two hours at least.
But that wasn't the end of the story.
When the soldier completed his mission he returned to the camp... to that WAS the camp - since it was now nothing more than a big crater...
An enemy missile had exploded nearby and destroyed the entire camp.
So not only the soldier changed his life - he was also saved from two deaths.
Now "explain" this incident according to science or nature.
(I don't ask to - it's rhetorical. )
I'm not speaking about "obvious" miracles like splitting of the see.
I'm speaking of situations when it seems there is no salvation - and then it comes from nowhere - "coincident".
There are too many such "coincidents" to think it's... coincident!
Many people nowadays can tell of such episodes in their own lives - not read somewhere.
How would you explain eg. such episode:
A particular (probably American) Jew was in the army.
He wasn't very religious - rather opposite.
Once, during the war (Vietnam? I don't remember exactly but it was quite recently), he went outside the military camp (or how is the place where soldiers gather between battles called?).
Of course he was on a mission - but that's not the point.
So he went out into the forest and walked for a while.
Suddenly he saw a big poisonous snake (cobra I think) just in front of him "standing" at half its length.
He froze with fear and prepared to be bitten.
But the snake didn't attack - just was swinging from side to side.
The soldier stood motionless and this continued on.
He began thinking about his entire life - that he was Jewish but never too religious.
He thought about his family and friends.
About his now-at-stake future.
Suddenly he decided that if somehow he survives the incident - he'll live a truly Jewish life.
And what do you think - the snake suddenly sprang away and disappeared between the bushes.
The whole incident took some two hours at least.
But that wasn't the end of the story.
When the soldier completed his mission he returned to the camp... to that WAS the camp - since it was now nothing more than a big crater...
An enemy missile had exploded nearby and destroyed the entire camp.
So not only the soldier changed his life - he was also saved from two deaths.
Now "explain" this incident according to science or nature.
(I don't ask to - it's rhetorical.
)
CurtSibling
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Such tales can be explained by a series of interlocking, but out-of-the-ordinary events.
If you are trying to imply a supernatural hand in this...I can tell you that every
event in the story can and does obey a set of natural laws. In the face of very
intense danger, the human mind can create all kinds of distortions and fallacies.
The heroic nature of the tale also raises the bar into the realms of fancy.
No gods to be seen here, just extra-ordinary circumstance...In my opinion.
.
If you are trying to imply a supernatural hand in this...I can tell you that every
event in the story can and does obey a set of natural laws. In the face of very
intense danger, the human mind can create all kinds of distortions and fallacies.
The heroic nature of the tale also raises the bar into the realms of fancy.
No gods to be seen here, just extra-ordinary circumstance...In my opinion.
.
HannibalBarka
We are Free
civ2 said:... When the soldier completed his mission he returned to the camp... to that WAS the camp - since it was now nothing more than a big crater...
An enemy missile had exploded nearby and destroyed the entire camp.
So not only the soldier changed his life - he was also saved from two deaths.
Now "explain" this incident according to science or nature.
(I don't ask to - it's rhetorical.
That one is easy to explain, the enemy was dumb and sent the missile two hours early or two hours late
Now maybe he needed a God to make him that dumb 
