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Discussion in 'Civ4 - PBEM Games' started by Tigranes, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. Hercules90

    Hercules90 Deity

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    Imp K I like your fighting spirit as I know from other games, but this proposal refutes and undermines the whole idea of CIv4: any civ that conquers another civ's empires cities must redistribute them amongst remaining civs who had no involvement in the battle. That rewards non involvement.

    Note Kiwitt attacked empires conquered cities after an other civ did the hard work attacking. He calculated he would survive but had to retreat and use all his nuclear weaponry.

    So just get on playing US empire without referencing a defeated empire you were once master..
     
  2. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Are you misunderstanding me on purpose?

    I DON'T ADVOCATE FOR CHANGING THE HOUSE RULES TO FORCE PLAYERS OWNING THE CITIES OF ELIMINATED CIVS TO GIVE THEM AWAY!

    Forget this post entirely for now, wipe it from your memory, pretend it doesn't exist. In fact, forget this whole entire discussion for now, and let's backtrack to the very beginning and see where it went wrong.

    So, it all started because this part of house rule number one:

    (Btw in the original post it erroneously says "onlywhen" instead of "only when")

    can no longer apply to certain cities, as the original 2010 owner has been completely eliminated from the game. This effectively means that these cities can never again be traded outside of peace negotiations:

    This feels wrong to me, and to Tigranes and possibly others too. Hence, on page 68 he suggested the following:

    If he were to have his way, the first house rule might be amended like so:

    I vehemently oppose this for a number of reasons.

    Consider this (I'm like half sure that it might have actually happened like this but it's been years so who knows for sure) : The Islamic player has accepted the UN player as their vassal. They are now both at war against Russia. Russia conquers Pakistani Islamabad. India then conquers Islamabad two turns later. The Islamic team is completely wiped out. 30 turns later Islamabad still belongs to India. Tigranes would have it so that Islamabad's original owner is now supposed to be considered Russia, even though they only occupied it for two months during a war of externination against its real original owner years ago, while India has now been controlling it for more than half a decade and has significant culture in it.

    If then Iran were to attack India and capture Islamabad, they may liberate it to Russia but nobody else in peacetime.

    How does that make sense, both from a gameplay and a realism perspective?

    From a pure gameplay perspective too it seems random in cases like this, and unfair in many other cases, especially when Tigranes took good care to balance the original 2010 scenario and the teams. Why should we throw that balance out the window like that?

    No, we need an alternative solution. I actually thought that I had presented such an alternative in clear terms only to be first ignored and then misunderstood as I repeated the alternative more forcefully and in-character. However, when I actually went to painstakingly backtrack the last seven pages of this thread I found out that I had actually conflated my proposal for the house rule with my trying to weaken China's position from the very beginning.

    Whoops. It's no wonder everyone kept misunderstanding the point I wanted to make if I never actually made it in the first place. Part of the blame naturally lies on all of you for judging my idea based on how I presented it to you instead of how it looked in my mind, how dare you not read my thoughts! :lol:

    Seriously though, I hereby apologize for the confusion I have caused by the unclear way I presented myself.

    With all of that out of the way, let me now list my actual alternative solutions to Tigranes' proposal:

    A.: If the original 2010 owner is dead, its player may designate a new civ of their team to be considered the original 2010 owner. If the entire team has been eliminated, a constructive, fair, balanced, and equitable one time effort is to be undertaken by all remaining players to designate who is to be considered the original 2010 owner of each affected city.

    The new first house rule would then look like so:

    The OP would ideally also be edited to reflect the results of these virtual original 2010 owner re-assignments. Below the house rules for instance Tigranes could add something like this:

    B.: If the original 2010 owner is dead, restrictions to trading their cities outside of peace negotiations no longer apply and they may be traded at will. Just... that. Seems pretty simple actually. I'd recommend combining this with a part of proposal A like so:

    C.: (I only came up with this right now and I'm actually feeling pretty proud about it) If the original 2010 owner is dead, whoever had the most culture in each affected city at the start of the game (excepting the now dead owner itself obviously) is to be considered the original 2010 owner.

    The greatest problem I can see with this is that there might be cities like some one tile islands in the pacific or deep Siberia that had zero foreign culture at the start of the game, but I'm not certain. I would have to check the original turn to be sure. Still, I feel like I should throw this at the wall and see if it sticks. Culture is already pretty weak in the base game and this mod made it even more useless with the removal of tile flipping, so I would definitely approve of using house rules to make it matter at least a little bit more.

    Come to think of it, maybe we could change the first house rule like so, a sort of syncretic hybrid proposal if you will:

    Also I just realized, isn't there a UN resolution, as in in the actual game mechanics, to liberate cities and assign a different owner? I know for a fact that there is an Apostolic Palace resolution like that because in a singleplayer game it once took a city from me I had conquered from a more popular neighbor, so it stands to reason the UN has it too. Is it intentional or an oversight that this isn't mentioned in the house rules? Civic resolutions for example are explicitly mentioned as superseding the house rule restricting civic changes.

    Oh god it's almost 4am. Somebody make sense of this mess I created for me please while I sleep.
     
  3. ruff_hi

    ruff_hi Live 4ever! Or die trying

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    As leader of the free world ... are there any requests?
     
  4. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Well, for now I only request that you all at least consider my alternative propositions to Tigranes'-

    ...

    Oh, you meant yourself, because you are now general secretary of the UN. Heh.

    I don't know, what's available? Are the "good for everyone always" resolutions like Single Currency and the open borders one active yet? If not I'd suggest that, else I'm not sure.
     
  5. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Yes, Open Markets is something even Ronald Dump would support.
     
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  6. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Guys, I still need you to weigh in with your unequivocal Yay or Nay. I can agree with original team idea because Nighthawk only retired Vietnam to save himself loading time, but he could have done what I done with South Africa -- keep a single (or maybe more :mischief: ) spies alive and hope for the better days as government in exile, even after the entire land was lost. In retrospect, keeping landless civ alive maybe an extra work but keeps your team's score high and has a potential for rebirth using "city liberation" house rule.
     
  7. Hercules90

    Hercules90 Deity

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    I really think Sinimusta needs to review past Russian Empire history threads and post from Tigranes above.
     
  8. Hercules90

    Hercules90 Deity

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    I reject your proposition in post 1442 above as a delaying tactic.
     
  9. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    WHAT! Why, you little...

    This doesn't even make any sense. Why would I want to delay this? Everyone has an interest in clear and fair rules established as soon as possible.
     
  10. sinimusta

    sinimusta el capitano

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    Ok, if that's accepted, I'm fine.
     
  11. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Wait, what accepted? You're fine with what? Is that a Yay on Tigranes' ludicrous proposal?

    Please at least consider my attempts at fomenting a constructive discourse of several alternatives instead of just blindly accepting the dictate of Tigranes.
     
  12. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Please chillax, Knoedel, your horse has already left the barn. People don't post something without considering. Even you! Time to amend house rule #1, Yays have majority.
     
  13. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    No! I veto! I do not recognize this sham election and I will not accept this nonsensical ruling until more reasonable options have been exhausted!
     
  14. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Sorry dude, you are out of luck

    If Ruff offers something -- you can veto IN GAME, because you are America, and I cannot, because none of my civs are real life SC members. But in terms of house rules of the game you can either accept majority rule or simply leave the game (please don't, not many available replacements here and it's a pain to bring them up to speed).
     
  15. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    I will not accept "majority rule" until it has also honestly considered my alternative proposals. You can't just boss me around like that.
     
  16. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    What to do when people are acting unreasonable? Simply ignore them? But what if you like them and just wish so that they grow up? :crazyeye::rolleyes:
     
  17. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Oh stop it. Don't you see that our species must band together in the face of constant external threats? I woke up from a bee- or wasp-sting and it hurts. The damn thing got away too. We need to burn down everything. Nature is the true enemy we need to focus against!
     
  18. Hercules90

    Hercules90 Deity

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    That was the ghost of Mohammed Ali, the boxer.

    'Float like a butterfly, sting like bee'
     
  19. sinimusta

    sinimusta el capitano

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    Tigranes please resend the turn, you send the wrong one accidentally.
     
  20. Hercules90

    Hercules90 Deity

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    GPS to Ma Ying>
    Very noticeable and without provocation the American Empire has been attacking Chinese Empire and it's members with sustained Special Forces units. So be aware.Typical US behaviour.
     
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