[RD] Daily Graphs and Charts

[Arakhor]

So it is! That makes more sense for Slovakia at least, but doesn't change the point of my second sentence (unless I've also misinterpreted that).

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm afraid you have, old chap; the native language is always taken for granted as being spoken more than any other in a country; the second (and third) language is always foreign. Only issues with the map are that in some countries the actual native majority used language is not the "national" one (Ireland), or is not the native one for parts of the country (parts of Spain) TLDR : the map isn't about native languages or used languages of specifically immigrant populations.
I guess you could say... you don't get to fruit-pick what is for immigrants

 

[Arakhor]

By the way, though, the second chart is about the next highest second language, not third languages. That is, if you're not a native Francophone, you're more likely to speak French as your second language in Germany than you are in France??

Those are very odd charts.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, third most popular language is the simpler way of putting it ^^ French indeed is the second most popular foreign language here (after english).

Re english being the second most popular second language ( ) in Britain... i suppose due to WALES/other devolved areas? Similar as with Spain.

That said, i will agree that the map is suspect re the second most popular stuff..

 

[Mise]

English is presumably the 2nd most spoken 2nd language in the UK because of immigration. (Nothing to do with Welsh I'd imagine - IIRC there are more French speakers in London than there are Welsh speakers in the entirety of Wales.) First most spoken will be French, because it's the only compulsory 2nd language in English schools. Even if the percentage of students who reach sufficient fluency to count it as a second language is probably quite small, it is a small percentage of a very large number, so the overall number of French-as-second-language speakers will be high. Second most spoken second language will be the language most spoken by immigrants, which is English.

I would imagine that in Germany or France, the difference is that the education system encourages native-German/French children to learn 2 foreign languages rather than just 1.

 

[Arakhor]

French is compulsory in schools these days? We had the choice of French or German at my school in the early 90s.

 

[Mise]

Well I'll rephrase, it's the first language you start learning in schools in year 7, before you get any sort of choice in the matter.

I suppose the crux of it is that people in the UK don't like learning foreign languages at all, so if they do learn one it'll probably be French, but not some other language. The number of native English speakers who learn German, for example, is less than the number of non-native English speakers living in the UK.

On the other hand, in France or Germany, people are encouraged to learn at least 1 and possibly 2 foreign languages, so "English + French/Spanish" is quite common and outweighs the influence of non-native speakers.

 

[Arakhor]

Ah well, maybe my schooling was different then. I started with German with Year 7 and only picked up French when it was offered as a voluntary option in Year 9.

 

[PhroX]

Back in the 90s, I had compulsory French from Year 1 of secondary school (think that's year 7 for non-grammar schools?) onwards, including GCSE, with a half year of Spanish and German in Year 2, a full year of one of those (our choice) in Year 3, and the option for doing one at GCSE. Oh, and I had two years of Latin.

 

[Arakhor]

Technically, I was never in Year 7, because they didn't adopt that system until I was already at (a comprehensive) secondary school. I was in Year 8 and onwards though.

 

[Hrothbern]

Back in the 60s, in the Netherlands, I had compulsory French in year 6 of the primary school (age 11-12).
English was not yet seen as the needed international language at early age and learning French seen as culturally more important.

 

[Borachio]

Ah well, maybe my schooling was different then. I started with German with Year 7 and only picked up French when it was offered as a voluntary option in Year 9.

Yeah. It does vary from region to region (and by school). I think French is the more common compulsory first foreign language. But I've certainly met people who only ever did German.

As for the English being reluctant foreign language learners, the French are at least as reluctant, imo.

 

[Arakhor]

I have a Spanish friend who says that it's actually quite common for Spaniards not to speak English well (if at all), which he put down to a similar mentality to Anglophones.

 

[Kyriakos]

It makes sense to not really be keen on learning a second language if your native language allows you to speak with a lot of people outside your country already - and have many parts of the web be in it. Spanish is at least the second most spoken language around, no? (at least in the 'west').
I suppose that most (and maybe even a large majority of) people whose native language is english are just monolingual. This has other effects, such as not being readily able to identify differences resulting from use of another language.

 

[Hrothbern]

Language and culture are interbred.

Learning another language is also learning another culture
and is also learning the differences between these cultures.
and a bit more speculative:
Is also the reason why the monolingual Anglo-spheric world faces so many cultural misunderstanding issues, whereby many multinational companies ignore it and just steamroll over it.

 

[Mise]

Obviously not everyone in a big country like France, Spain or Germany will speak a foreign language; and for English-speakers living in England or holidaymaking to tourist areas of other countries, we get a disproportionate sense of how common it is for people in other countries to be able to speak English.

The critical metric, for those maps, isn't whether a majority or even a large proportion of people in a country speak a second language. The test is whether there are enough native-speakers in those countries who also speak a foreign language to outnumber the number of immigrants in that country who speak the native language as a second language. In France and Germany, this is true not only when looking at English as a second language, but also for Spanish and French as second languages respectively: there are more native-French speakers who speak Spanish as a second language than immigrants to France who speak French as a second language. In England, it is true for French, but not for any other language: there are more immigrants who speak English as a second language than native English speakers who speak German, Spanish, Italian, or any language other than French.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not sure why that's so important, though.

Can you explain it a bit more?

London, in particular, is an extremely metropolitan place. Possibly the most metropolitan in the world.

Also, there's a great deal more to learning a foreign language than studying at secondary school level. Which, imo, is largely a waste of time. Not a complete waste of time, but getting an 'A' level in French isn't all that helpful when it comes to speaking and understanding French. It's just a beginning.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think it is very useful, and not just for practical reasons. If you speak a second language you can yourself not just note but actually sense the differences in your own self when using one language or another. Besides, if there is only ONE of something you won't get to view it as a case, given for you it acts as a singularity.
That said, if i was born in the UK i am not sure if i would be speaking a second language. And afaik the vast majority of USians do not.

 

[Borachio]

I agree that's it's very useful. And I have heard (can't remember where) that people who are bilingual are effectively immune from Alzheimers.

It's just that learning a foreign language to any degree of fluency is very hard, and takes a great deal of time and motivation. Especially for anyone who isn't an infant.

 

[Mise]

I'm not sure why that's so important, though.

Can you explain it a bit more?

London, in particular, is an extremely metropolitan place. Possibly the most metropolitan in the world.

Also, there's a great deal more to learning a foreign language than studying at secondary school level. Which, imo, is largely a waste of time. Not a complete waste of time, but getting an 'A' level in French isn't all that helpful when it comes to speaking and understanding French. It's just a beginning.

If you're replying to me rather than to Hrothbern or the thread in general then I'm just saying in words what the map says, and why it's not especially surprising that the UK's second most spoken second language is English.