D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

Bucephalus said:
Given our UU, the next resource of significance is Salt.
Our UU is a defensive unit. A Golden Age begins when the UU wins a battle (do barbs count?) OR we have /build (?) two Wonders that match our civ traits. We are Industrious and Commercial. Hoover Dam is an Industrious Wonder and Smiths a Commercial one.

How do we want to begin our Golden Age?
Do we even need one?

General Reference:
Industrious Wonders (5): Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Hoover Dam and Manhattan Project.
Commercial Wonders (4): Lighthouse, United Nations, Magellans Voyage and Smith's Trading Company.
 
OK, it seems I'm in a minority of one on this. But I'd like it on record that I'm seriously concerned by our lack of military; I believe that we are courting disaster by being so weak. I know that we are aiming for Space but I don't think that being strong and being advanced are mutually exclusive.
 
CommandoBob said:
Our UU is a defensive unit. A Golden Age begins when the UU wins a battle (do barbs count?) OR we have /build (?) two Wonders that match our civ traits. We are Industrious and Commercial. Hoover Dam is an Industrious Wonder and Smiths a Commercial one.

No barbs do not count for trigger a GA.
 
Bucephalus said:
OK, it seems I'm in a minority of one on this. But I'd like it on record that I'm seriously concerned by our lack of military; I believe that we are courting disaster by being so weak. I know that we are aiming for Space but I don't think that being strong and being advanced are mutually exclusive.

If we get saltpeter, we shall be in good position. But making a war sounds even better. If we wage war with the Iroqui nation, can we wait till Gunpowder so we can really start the party? :ar15: But basically, if you dont have have military, you are eventually going to get attacked by another nation, so better be prepared.
 
Note that I began the process of putting together a better military. And that I agree with Bucephalus that our military is pitiful. But we can have both power and smarts, just need to build it right. The best way to do that given our objectives is to train troops in one or two towns and build buildings in one or two towns, then swap. We have three barracks towns right now and a fourth will finish soon. The best of of barracks towns is growing back from pop1 right now. The second is building a market so it can grow one (might need an acqueduct, I forget) and produce 10spt. The third is in corrupt Cherbnourg and training a pike with the help of some forestry as it has all the buildings it needs right now. The rest of the corrupt towns are training the other two legs on the camp stool: trebs and galleys.

War with Iroquois is inevitable but should not come before Guns which will be here soon enough ("What can wait, should wait") Be aware that if we stir Lizzie into war with Hiawatha he may only get stronger at her expense, rather than the other way around. And if we deal her Chivalry and Horses she will go at Hiawatha without any urging on our part, unless we get greedy and wreck her economy with those trades and she comes after us to break the deals, so be careful and don't take everything she offers!

I like the idea of Ragnar punching on Abe, what do you guys think?
 
Bede said:
I like the idea of Ragnar punching on Abe, what do you guys think?
Big Idea: AI vs. AI, building weapons and not brains, good!
Details: What of War Weariness and Reputation?

From an earlier post, WW should not be a problem, since we will lose no units. But to get this war going, the only sure way is an Military Alliance. This locks us into a 20 turn commitment, unless we break it and take a rep hit. In a solo game, I might make peace too early and break the MA (because I don't always count the turns). I would not want that to happen here.

My understanding of Reputation is sortof fuzzy. What I think I know boils down to 'don't break AI promises'.
 
Reputation is golden and should never be deliberately broken.

It works more or less the way Cbob has stated it. There are lots of ins and outs but in general if you make a 20 turn deal of any kind, stick with it and you will have no reputation problems.

War weariness is only a problem when you have any one of these four things happen or in progress: 1) troops in enemy territory; 2) enemy troops in your home territory; 3) troops are lost in battle; 4) cities are lost to the enemy.

War weariness begins its count when you declare on an opponent. If they declare on you it starts its count when you put troops across the border into their territory or they enter your territory.

But if none of the four things enumerated above does not happen then it never amounts to much of anything and an overseas war can rage on forever without having an economic impact.

When thinking about war two things need to inform the decision: 1) possible potential trade losses; 2) protecting existing trade routes. Having Navigation in our hands before starting any war will take of the number 2, and choosing the opponent carefully will take care of 1.

What is interesting here is that neither of the two big dogs have anything to offer us in trade....yet Abe has the Great Library, so preserving trade possibilities with him will let us buy discounted tech should we need to, though the rest of the gang have nothing to offer us. Bribing any of the others to war with the big dogs will only make the rich grow richer so that is not even to be considered.
 
Bucephalus said:
No, it became obsolete when Abe aquired Education from Ragnar.

Good catch, I missed that one. Looks like he built it right on time....
 
This was a turnset of two halves: the first half is barely worth reporting, just worker moves to clear remaining marsh, and mine two remaining mountains. Since we are running out of worker jobs I joined some to Orleons to get it back up to speed. Turn 5 (500AD) saw Abe finish Astronomy 1 turn before us. I immediately gave this trade to Ragnor:

Deal_with_Ragnar.JPG


...and this to Wank on:

Deal_with_Wank_on.JPG


We have no Saltpeter; Hiyawotsisname has two. Grrrr
The second half came good with some aggressive trading on my part:

First this in 510AD:

deal_with_Hiyawotsisname.JPG


In 540AD several trade deals expired; we lost Ivory, Iron, and a shed load of gold. Hiyawotsisname wants a Kings ransom for Iron so I left it. Instead I traded thus:

deal_with_Lizzie.JPG


..and thus:

deal_2_with_Hiyawotsit.JPG


Then finally in 550AD we learn Navigation. The following trades allowed us to run 100% science - Chemistry in 5 (I had to choose something, it's up for debate)

deal_2_with_Pachacuti.JPG


deal_2_withWang_Kon.JPG



All this leaves the economy thus:

The_French_Economy_550AD.JPG


..and we are now the Tech leader.

The Save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/D'Artagnan_of_the_French,_550_AD.SAV

Edit: I also built/upgraded some units - we've got a passable defence force now.
 
So where is Copernicus' Observatory?

And that passable defense force is resting on its heels in Orleans, they need to spread around a little so Hiawatha doesn't drop a Mountie in our laps.

Detailed Instructions for the next player: we still have a shot at Copernicus' Observatory in Paris. Start it there and rearrange the citizens to get max shields there. Lyons can start Magellan's Voyage as a prebuild for Newton's University. The cascade may kill us on Copernicus but Newton's is yet to be won. Do this before pressing enter as one turn's delay will surely lose it for us.
Start reassigning tax collectors to scientists, raise the lux tax and put the citizens in the core back to work. We have a ton of money coming and lots in the treasury so tax collectors aren't needed but every beaker helps in solidifying the tech lead. Take a clsoe look at the corrupt towns and if the citizen is working a low food (two or less) field set him to a beakerhead. We can sacrifice a little growth in those burgs to keep the science push going.

We do not want to sacrifice growth in the core towns by hiring specialists.

Peddle the world map around and also see if can't pick up iron from someone. Maybe giving Guns to Hiawatha will get us iron and get him to connect his saltpeter so we can buy some.

In five turns or so see if you can't bribe Abe to declare on Ragnar (yes I have changed my perspective on who should punch who, but it really doesn't matter, it just appears that we may have a little more leverage with the Abester, or need what he has more than we need what the Ragnar has.) after declaring on him yourself. Ragnar owes us a chunk of change yet so we
don't want to mess with him right now but we do need to put a muzzle on those other guys soon.

I admire the agressive trading but would have done it a little differently. Picking up obsolete tech like Monarchy and Chivalry is generally bad business, especially since there is no iron to build knights.

It was a good move using Chivalry to acquire luxes from Korea but again I just might have handled it a little differently as I state below.

Getting the luxuries is good business but I would have used gpt or luxiries in return to those two sellers rather than techs they can't trade. Gold per turn or luxuries would have bolstered their economies and possibly have made them stronger competitors to the the two big dogs. Untradeable techs that have military implications generally influence the AI to do something stupid, like declare war on the biggest guy on the continent.


Of course I can't recreate your position at the time those deals were made so maybe they wouldn't have touched our money but my gut feel says it is unlikely and we are certainly not short of money or silks/wines to trade.

Bede's Three Rules of Tech Trading:

1) Do we need it
2) Can we afford it
3) Can we peddle it somewhere else

The answer's break out a little like the old horse dealers rhyme:

One white foot, buy him
Two white feet try him
Three white feet pass him by
Four white feet feed him to the crows

but in this instance go the other way - if the answer to all three is yes, do it and do it now. if the answer to only two is yes, think about it some more, and if the answer to only one is yes, forget it.

Now I would never trade luxuries or gold per turn to Abe or Ragnar. Military resources (of which we only have horses) I would not hesitate. But luxes and gpt only make the strong stronger and what we want to do is weaken them. Military resources will often encourage them to overbuild their military and eventually wreck their economies.

All that said we are where we want to be, though we are not really leading the tech race, we are doing a good job keeping pace, though. :thumbsup:
 
Bede said:
So where is Copernicus' Observatory?

It wasn't due until another 20 turns; there is a Wonder cascade about to happen.

And that passable defense force is resting on its heels in Orleans, they need to spread around a little so Hiawatha doesn't drop a Mountie in our laps.

With respect to your greater experience Bede, I think that is untrue. Our 'passable' defence force would only be so in concentration; the kind of attack you are describing is better protected against by 3-4 Knights, a unit which you dismiss as a waste of shields. Strategically placed they would cover every mainland square with an effective and mobile defence, something you cannot do with 3-4 bowmen or MI's.
 
Nice trading, Buce. :thumbsup:
D'Artagnan59 said:
Let's call Hiawatha Bob and Pachacuti Tom. How 'bout it!
how about call Hiawatha, Iroqui. and call Pachacuti, Pancho. ;) it seems easier, doesent it?
 
Do trading things like iron ALWAYS make the AI build units? probably, but we dont have any military resources, just military techs...:scan:

btw, 100th post, D'Artagan! :)
 
We got horses!!! Think about it.

One of my favorite tactics when dealing with an AI with a high aggression level is to suck out all the cash flow with a combination of trades involving military technology for cash and gpt and the associated resource for gpt. I have seen them bankrupt themselves by upgrading or buying the new troops and a couple of turns later declaring on me because they can no longer make the payments. They are easy to kill when that happens.....

D'Artagnan - who's up?
 
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