Darths and Droids Mafia- Game Thread
- Thread starter choxorn
- Start date
I tried to argue that you were a likely town. No one seems to be responding to logic now that the fear of cult conversion has over taken reasoning
A note, I didn't vote the Orb to Zack yet my name is down in the tally. It doesn't change anything as he still gets it.
Considering some seem to think BL is cultist, I do wonder if he would keep his ability if he got lynched. Would he be a known dead cult still able to vote?
That could be very harmful if we get down to lower numbers.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
1) Nope. Hasn't had time to, or more likely, can't kill us all at once like that. He'll kill us all more methodically though.
2) Agree, though I somehow don't see it happening. He's buddies with Zack.
3) No argument here, though I doubt that happens. We know what Zack's plan is. Kill the 'useless' people first. And now he has two kills to do it. Good job guys.
4) Wouldn't quite go that far. That wasn't much of an analysis. Anyone could have thrown that together.
I tried to argue that you were a likely town. No one seems to be responding to logic now that the fear of cult conversion has over taken reasoning
I wasn't aware there was quality reasoning against spaceman. We knew his role, his claimed ability was proven, and still guys like Jarrema (who Zack insisted was a bad lynch way back when), Sam Sniped, and Buddhafish piled on with zero reasoning. I don't even see what Mergle's argument was outside of 'he was against Zack.' Hello, I'M against Zack.
I keep my ability regardless. Doesn't matter how I die. I'd also be a pretty worthless ability if I was Cult/Trade Federation, but that's for you to decide, not me.
Zack
99% hot gas
You keep putting quotes around "useless," but I never said that. The only person you're quoting is yourself.
Spoiler Backwards :
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
Basically, you did admit to targeting vanillas, which are basically useless in finding scum through any in-game mechanical means. No, you didn't say useless directly, but at least from my perspective, it was implied. I expect this vig pattern to continue.
Spoiler Zack :
Zack
99% hot gas
Who would you suggest targeting? Specific names. I'm sick of this "criticize the town leader the one time he's wrong, but don't offer any alternatives" BS that happens every game.
No, I'm not infallible. Just because I am wrong does not mean the logic was not sound, and just because I am right does not mean the logic WAS sound. It's a lot easier to criticize the order to kill azzaman in hindsight, after you've seen the alignment reveal. The logic behind it was reasonable; azzaman was *confirmed* town all the way back on Day 2 or whatever, so he seemed like a great place to start looking for cult recruits; the fact that he no longer had any useful ability was a bonus, meaning that if he was town, very little was lost. That was the reasoning, in that order. I'm sick of hearing this libel about the sole reasoning being "Zack is power-hungry" and "Zack is bloodthirsty" and "Zack wants to kill vanillas". That is blatantly false, as I have explained the reasoning multiple times; but, for whatever reason, no one wants to listen to the one person who has empirical evidence showing he is not cult, and thus town (since he was scanned as town early in the game). It was literally impossible for mechaerik to convert me, and me belonging to any other faction can be ruled out due to the scan on me revealing me as town. There is absolutely no good, logical reason to suspect me of being anything other than town; the only possible reason is fearmongering and lack of willingness to admit a miscalculation in judgement.
And do not put quotes under words that were "implied," but not stated. It's an obvious attempt at manipulating others into formulating a false impression of me.
No, I'm not infallible. Just because I am wrong does not mean the logic was not sound, and just because I am right does not mean the logic WAS sound. It's a lot easier to criticize the order to kill azzaman in hindsight, after you've seen the alignment reveal. The logic behind it was reasonable; azzaman was *confirmed* town all the way back on Day 2 or whatever, so he seemed like a great place to start looking for cult recruits; the fact that he no longer had any useful ability was a bonus, meaning that if he was town, very little was lost. That was the reasoning, in that order. I'm sick of hearing this libel about the sole reasoning being "Zack is power-hungry" and "Zack is bloodthirsty" and "Zack wants to kill vanillas". That is blatantly false, as I have explained the reasoning multiple times; but, for whatever reason, no one wants to listen to the one person who has empirical evidence showing he is not cult, and thus town (since he was scanned as town early in the game). It was literally impossible for mechaerik to convert me, and me belonging to any other faction can be ruled out due to the scan on me revealing me as town. There is absolutely no good, logical reason to suspect me of being anything other than town; the only possible reason is fearmongering and lack of willingness to admit a miscalculation in judgement.
And do not put quotes under words that were "implied," but not stated. It's an obvious attempt at manipulating others into formulating a false impression of me.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
I'm happy to oblige with some names for you then, in no particular order
Mergle: gone along with many lynches, hasn't really contributed much in-thread and when he has it was based on some fairly poor reasoning (the spaceman lynch). You haven't directly gone after him either when he's thrown up a number of red flags (at least to me), so I already suspect the two of you have been working together since the very beginning. You know more than I about him.
Mat93. As pointed out by others, he has skirted under the radar. I vaguely recall a claim from him or from someone for him, but he also got an inconclusive scan result on him. That scan worked on Bsmith, didn't on TBK. To me, he's vig material.
Ravus_Sol/traius. Fell to the backburner, but at the end of the day he still stopped a lynch way back when and traius did act fairly scummy when he was in control of the role. Lynch pressure won't do anything, therefore is also vig material.
Sam Sniped: PG scan won't catch a converted cult, so in this particular instance I would agree with you on targeting him. Lynch might reveal role through pressure (or did we get a claim from him?). Shoddy voting record doesn't help either.
Buddhafish, though not because he's used his ability up (and in such a way that was helpful). If we assume the Cult didn't have a kill before mech's death, than from a purely mechanical standpoint it could make sense the Cult would have a way to screw with the other kills by extending the night. It's extremely flimsy, but it's a thought. One has to figure the Cult would have something else to do while mech ran around trying to convert people. Otherwise, it's a pretty boring/static side to play on. Possibility on SamSniped with this line of thought also. Tangentially, what was/is your PG?
Yes it is easy to criticize any kill after it's all said and done, and while I can kind of see where you are coming from with the 'no harm, no foul' line of logic, the fact he had the Orb, not his ending alignment, is what set me off. It just didn't look good/something a townie would do, that's all.
Mergle: gone along with many lynches, hasn't really contributed much in-thread and when he has it was based on some fairly poor reasoning (the spaceman lynch). You haven't directly gone after him either when he's thrown up a number of red flags (at least to me), so I already suspect the two of you have been working together since the very beginning. You know more than I about him.
Mat93. As pointed out by others, he has skirted under the radar. I vaguely recall a claim from him or from someone for him, but he also got an inconclusive scan result on him. That scan worked on Bsmith, didn't on TBK. To me, he's vig material.
Ravus_Sol/traius. Fell to the backburner, but at the end of the day he still stopped a lynch way back when and traius did act fairly scummy when he was in control of the role. Lynch pressure won't do anything, therefore is also vig material.
Sam Sniped: PG scan won't catch a converted cult, so in this particular instance I would agree with you on targeting him. Lynch might reveal role through pressure (or did we get a claim from him?). Shoddy voting record doesn't help either.
Buddhafish, though not because he's used his ability up (and in such a way that was helpful). If we assume the Cult didn't have a kill before mech's death, than from a purely mechanical standpoint it could make sense the Cult would have a way to screw with the other kills by extending the night. It's extremely flimsy, but it's a thought. One has to figure the Cult would have something else to do while mech ran around trying to convert people. Otherwise, it's a pretty boring/static side to play on. Possibility on SamSniped with this line of thought also. Tangentially, what was/is your PG?
Yes it is easy to criticize any kill after it's all said and done, and while I can kind of see where you are coming from with the 'no harm, no foul' line of logic, the fact he had the Orb, not his ending alignment, is what set me off. It just didn't look good/something a townie would do, that's all.
Zack
99% hot gas
Out of those five people you listed...
- One is being targeted by Yoda tonight (and a different one was suggested).
- One is being scanned.
- One was supposed to be Peace Moon'd yesterday, but I forgot to send in the order. (I should note that I can now use the Peace Moon every other day instead of every third day, now, and that I am certainly up to discussing who to use it on freely, in public.)
To be fair, azzaman wasn't doing anything with it, and he certainly wasn't confirmed town by any means. I could use it to enhance my limited vig ability, or to pass on to the scanner/a different power role to potentially enhance their role, without revealing the power role(s) in public or to more people than absolutely necessary. azzaman having the orb was a silver lining, not the main or even secondary reasoning for killing him. Also keep in mind that I am not making these decisions by myself, so there is definitely a "check" on my decision-making, although the kill choice was unanimous among the three of us in azzaman's case.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
I hit on it in my post above, but feel I wasn't direct enough:
Do you think the Cult converted someone before mech's death, or do you think mech started the game with at least one partner?
Do you think the Cult converted someone before mech's death, or do you think mech started the game with at least one partner?
Zack
99% hot gas
I'm assuming mechaerik started by himself and converted two or three other people at least before he started getting roleblocked at night. I'm not sure why you think the cult only has two people in it.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
Two/three, it's just a number - hence the 'at least' bit. He could have started with more - the question was more did he start alone or with others.
Zack
99% hot gas
If he started with a partner(s), I would personally call that a mafia team with recruiting abilities, and although I believe that's how a "cult" starting out with more than one person has always been described, it is not written in stone anywhere.
spaceman98
Plotting something
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2010
- Messages
- 3,639
On the potential for Zack killing us of one by one: That would be a ludicrously hard role to win as. Its a lone killer (like an SK, which is allready hard) but forced to reveal his existance in public and rely on others to give him the orb (which someone owns at start, so he must rely on other killers) etc. Basically, such a role would be horribly unbalanced and near impossible to win. While I am sure Zack could win for such a role, any anti-town role for Zack at this point would be unwinable for any normal player. Choxron would not put in such a poorly ballanced role. If Zack was an SK, him getting the orb would have ended the game in a planet buster. I am 100% sure he is a third party trying to get the orb, but him getting it is not anti town, it is mutually benificial. He completes his PG, we get a day vidge to thin the cult. Zack is town, though he may be converted tonight (so can anyone).
What I am worried about is that I would expect 4 trade feds and we have only found 3. It would make sense for the last trade fed to sit out the town/cult paranoia war, wait until there are three players left and strike. Who is he? Methinks Mergle is a cultist. BL could be the last federation, but his PG was scanned, fits his claim and his role. I think its Jarremma, since he bandwagons and has posted little, or Autocylus, who has been the default lurker for most of the game, but I am not sure.
What I am worried about is that I would expect 4 trade feds and we have only found 3. It would make sense for the last trade fed to sit out the town/cult paranoia war, wait until there are three players left and strike. Who is he? Methinks Mergle is a cultist. BL could be the last federation, but his PG was scanned, fits his claim and his role. I think its Jarremma, since he bandwagons and has posted little, or Autocylus, who has been the default lurker for most of the game, but I am not sure.
Buddhafish
Abbey Road
BL, I don't know if you were directly asking me for my PG, but I'll provide it anyways.
Save 2 Townies by using my ability. I'm assuming saving them means getting someone protected, roleblocked, or a kill changed. So I think I have that accomplished.
Save 2 Townies by using my ability. I'm assuming saving them means getting someone protected, roleblocked, or a kill changed. So I think I have that accomplished.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
Yea, I wasn't clear there. Was asking for Zack's. Good to know though.
Zack
99% hot gas
My PG has nothing to do with the orb - go check, SamSniped posted it awhile back.
Jarrema was swinging from a bunch of rooftops with a grappling hook, because apparently that was fun. Maybe he was trying to follow or escape from someone. "Escape" seemed more likely when a figure in stormtrooper armor appeared on a nearby ledge and started shooting at him. He tried to go in a different direction, but one of the shots destroyed the grappling hook, sending Jarrema plummeting to his doom.
On the ground, he said "I'm only mostly dead now!" which must have annoyed a Space Dreadnought, as said Dreadnought promptly incinerated him with lasers, rendering him all dead. Sadly, his clothes could not be checked for loose change, as they, too, were incinerated. Presumably, so was the change.
The town woke up and vowed to avenge the death of Jarrema, as soon as they could finish cleaning up the pile of molten biomass that used to be Jarrema.
Players:
1. askthepizzaguy Killed Night 3, R2-D2
2. Autolycus
3. azzaman333 Killed Night 8, Owen Lars
4. Backwards Logic
5. BSmith1068 Lynched Day 4, Count Dookû
6. Buddhafish
7. CivCube Lynched Day 3, Jango Fett
8. CivGeneral Vengeful Lyncheed Day 6, Boss Nass
9. classical hero replaced by NinjaCow64 Killed Night 5, Chewbacca
10. Darth Caesar Lynched Day 6, Greedo/Han Solo
11. Dreadnought Killed Night 1, Darth Maul
12. Gone 3 The Celt
13. Jarrema Killed Night 9, Luke Amidala
14. JoanK Killed Night 2, Beru Lars
15. johnhughthom Killed Night 8, Obi-Wan Kenobi
16. Kennigit Killed Night 5, Padme Amidala
17. Mat93
18. mechaerik Killed Night 7, Anakin Skywalker
19. Mergle
20. SamSniped
21. SouthernKing Lynched Day 5, TZ-4
22. spaceman98 Lynched Day 9, Watto
23. Takhisis Killed Night 4, Jar-Jar Binks
24. The Black Knigh Lynched Day 8, Han Solo
25. topsecret
26.traius Ravus_Sol
27. Visorslash Lynched Day 1, Nute Gunray
28. Xenoneb Lynched Day 7, General Grievous
29. Zack
Begin Day 10. It will end in: [TIMER="2/4/2013 12:00 AM PST; Day 10 Over"][/TIMER]
On the ground, he said "I'm only mostly dead now!" which must have annoyed a Space Dreadnought, as said Dreadnought promptly incinerated him with lasers, rendering him all dead. Sadly, his clothes could not be checked for loose change, as they, too, were incinerated. Presumably, so was the change.
The town woke up and vowed to avenge the death of Jarrema, as soon as they could finish cleaning up the pile of molten biomass that used to be Jarrema.
Spoiler :
Players:
2. Autolycus
4. Backwards Logic
6. Buddhafish
12. Gone 3 The Celt
17. Mat93
19. Mergle
20. SamSniped
25. topsecret
26.
29. Zack
Begin Day 10. It will end in: [TIMER="2/4/2013 12:00 AM PST; Day 10 Over"][/TIMER]
50% fail rate of abilities targeted at him meant that a conversion attempt could fail, this in addition to the idea that the cults can only convert certain people. In my eyes he was the most likely townie at that point.
Well. That answers if there is another Trade Federation member around.
Thoughts
The fact that the Stormtrooper and the Dreadnought attacked the same person implies that they aren't working together. So we have a cult assimilation in play with killing power along with a lone trade member with nothing to loose. I do wonder why he chose now to act.
On the identity of the Mr Dreadnought, there are two possibilities. Either the Dreadnought is a mafia ability shared by all of the Tradies, perhaps built over a period of time like the Peace Moon. Or it is a singular ability, most likely one with a recharge time, held by the final trade member individually. I would assume the latter as the Dreadnought isn't symbolic of the Trade Federation in itself. If that is the case then the most likely suspect is a person who doesn't have an ability.
In fact there are only 3 people who I don't know for certain the ability of.
4. Backwards Logic: Proclaimed Ghost Vote (Unproven)
17. Mat93: Suspected Double Vote (Unproven)
25. topsecret: Suspected Self Protection (Unproven)
Mat93's ability has never been said out loud, but I think he was the only suspect for the double vote power. On the other hand Zack's Scanner got no result on him. Backwards Logic has been acting confrontational and his ability is one that cannot be confirmed truly until after his own death. It is, however, backed up by SamSniped's PG scan saying BL has "to vote for a person after his death who was important in lynching him". Meanwhile topsecret protected himself somehow from a killer at night, now you could try to argue that it might be some kind of godfather thing to survive once while having a second ability. But I think that the method of protection, distraction via words makes it a more town like defensive ability. Not to mention the killer targeting him was Grevious. Unless Grevious targeted a ally purposefully to create a "in" character... But honestly that sounds like paranoia talking.
No good choices.
If it is a shared Trade Mafia ability then the best place to look is at roles and whether they match abilities etc. As Trade Scum have fake identities. There is actually a shockingly low number of revealed roles now.
2. Autolycus:
17. Mat93:
19. Mergle:
20. SamSniped:
25. topsecret:
All have no publicly claimed roles. But of course, this method of weighing the possibility of a fake identity is even worse then focusing on players abilities. Of the currently known roles we have;
4. Backwards Logic: Captain Antilles
6. Buddhafish: Ponda Baba.
12. Gone 3 The Celt: Yoda
26. Ravus Sol: Bail Organa
29. Zack: Palpatine
Of these Captain Antilles and Ponda Baba have the weak roles. Though I doubt either of them would be cover roles at this point. I did suspect Ponda Baba originally as his drinking buddy was a cover role for the Serial Killer, Count Dooku. But his continued use of his elongate night/kill detection ability makes his position that much more secure. I think he town. There is most likely a much weaker role in the currently unclaimed players.
We have a lynch today AND Zack has offered to at least discuss who he will zap with his WMD. Can anyone think of anything I missed? I'm not voting yet because I want to give an opportunity for response in case there are any holes in my reasoning.
EDIT: Wait a minute, wasn't the Vigilante supposed to make a kill?
Thoughts
The fact that the Stormtrooper and the Dreadnought attacked the same person implies that they aren't working together. So we have a cult assimilation in play with killing power along with a lone trade member with nothing to loose. I do wonder why he chose now to act.
On the identity of the Mr Dreadnought, there are two possibilities. Either the Dreadnought is a mafia ability shared by all of the Tradies, perhaps built over a period of time like the Peace Moon. Or it is a singular ability, most likely one with a recharge time, held by the final trade member individually. I would assume the latter as the Dreadnought isn't symbolic of the Trade Federation in itself. If that is the case then the most likely suspect is a person who doesn't have an ability.
In fact there are only 3 people who I don't know for certain the ability of.
4. Backwards Logic: Proclaimed Ghost Vote (Unproven)
17. Mat93: Suspected Double Vote (Unproven)
25. topsecret: Suspected Self Protection (Unproven)
Mat93's ability has never been said out loud, but I think he was the only suspect for the double vote power. On the other hand Zack's Scanner got no result on him. Backwards Logic has been acting confrontational and his ability is one that cannot be confirmed truly until after his own death. It is, however, backed up by SamSniped's PG scan saying BL has "to vote for a person after his death who was important in lynching him". Meanwhile topsecret protected himself somehow from a killer at night, now you could try to argue that it might be some kind of godfather thing to survive once while having a second ability. But I think that the method of protection, distraction via words makes it a more town like defensive ability. Not to mention the killer targeting him was Grevious. Unless Grevious targeted a ally purposefully to create a "in" character... But honestly that sounds like paranoia talking.
No good choices.
If it is a shared Trade Mafia ability then the best place to look is at roles and whether they match abilities etc. As Trade Scum have fake identities. There is actually a shockingly low number of revealed roles now.
2. Autolycus:
17. Mat93:
19. Mergle:
20. SamSniped:
25. topsecret:
All have no publicly claimed roles. But of course, this method of weighing the possibility of a fake identity is even worse then focusing on players abilities. Of the currently known roles we have;
4. Backwards Logic: Captain Antilles
6. Buddhafish: Ponda Baba.
12. Gone 3 The Celt: Yoda
26. Ravus Sol: Bail Organa
29. Zack: Palpatine
Of these Captain Antilles and Ponda Baba have the weak roles. Though I doubt either of them would be cover roles at this point. I did suspect Ponda Baba originally as his drinking buddy was a cover role for the Serial Killer, Count Dooku. But his continued use of his elongate night/kill detection ability makes his position that much more secure. I think he town. There is most likely a much weaker role in the currently unclaimed players.
We have a lynch today AND Zack has offered to at least discuss who he will zap with his WMD. Can anyone think of anything I missed? I'm not voting yet because I want to give an opportunity for response in case there are any holes in my reasoning.
EDIT: Wait a minute, wasn't the Vigilante supposed to make a kill?
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