Deity Challenge #10 - Maya on pangaea

[jeespoks]

For the next challenge I would love to try a map where only "cultural victory" was enabled!

I hava actually never even tried it myself. And I have never seen anyone honestly win it.

And, this would really put people out of their comfort zones. Some people always seem to go for science victory, some always for domination (me ).

Maybe the Inca would be a fun civilization? I have not tried them much, but people say they are really good, but I do not really understand why, so would be fun to see them in action .

The Incas might not then be enough challenge for you I think they are probably the best civ for cultural win on Deity if you just get even the "regular" start location. Terrace farms are monsters and come early.

 

[Old Peter]

May I post the next challenge?

I have a very good idea. Both some very easy stuff and hard stuff combined. Not the usual challenge but very fun I think. Should be good training for everyone.

 

[jeespoks]

May I post the next challenge?

I have a very good idea. Both some very easy stuff and hard stuff combined. Not the usual challenge but very fun I think. Should be good training for everyone.

Sounds good Anything that's not the usual, standard Pangaea can be interesting. I'm still working on challenges 8-10 but I'm sure some of the more devoted and faster players are up for a new challenge.

 

[tommynt]

We can make it perfect. Mirror map, obviously, no war - since damage is not set, no religion - we all know how these stupid prophets are born whenever they want and no wonders - the host will always get them if both players complete them simultaneously. That's kind of pdrfect game I won't necessarily play myself, but would love to see somebody else plays it. Just because I'm a nice guy and enjoy watching other people suffer.
Oh, wait.. there still is a random factor. WLtKD!

I played some duels with kinda same settings:

Mirrored east vs west map - there is a small ocean in between players (with a middle coastal line), no ruins, barbs, CS - so no very early wars but midgame people can go war route aswell.
Think thats a very "fair" setting with just the one problem that host gets the wonders same turn built.

Kinda fun and same time relaxing setting for me.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I played some duels with kinda same settings:

Mirrored east vs west map - there is a small ocean in between players (with a middle coastal line), no ruins, barbs, CS - so no very early wars but midgame people can go war route aswell.
Think thats a very "fair" setting with just the one problem that host gets the wonders same turn built.

Kinda fun and same time relaxing setting for me.

I'm not surprised you cometitive as you are enjoyed these settings at all. But the vast majority won't, I believe. Civ and gaming in general is not all about competition and testing skills under super restrictive rules.

 

[pkf]

I'm not surprised you cometitive as you are enjoyed these settings at all. But the vast majority won't, I believe. Civ and gaming in general is not all about competition and testing skills under super restrictive rules.

See, I claimed tommy's style (or DoW/tank, no RAs) to be the most effective for regular GOTM and fastest finish times (note I didn't say Deity.)

That's all I said. I didn't say tommy is the best. Nor did I say it's the best playstyle in general, but only for the specific GOTM environment.

Then you talked about apples and oranges, OCCs, different game settings. Please just realize it was you introducing a bad comparison, not me.

You are, of course, right in your romantic (I don't mean that in a bad way) view of CiV and that's obviously the reason why I love this game as well.

Just keep in mind that for whatever competitive element a game offers (here: GOTM) there will always be a style you may call cookiecutter, and it will be superior to other approaches - for now.

 

[The Pilgrim]

See, I claimed tommy's style (or DoW/tank, no RAs) to be the most effective for regular GOTM and fastest finish times (note I didn't say Deity.)

That's all I said. I didn't say tommy is the best. Nor did I say it's the best playstyle in general, but only for the specific GOTM environment.

Then you talked about apples and oranges, OCCs, different game settings. Please just realize it was you introducing a bad comparison, not me.

You're completely missing the point. I do not offer any comparison. I'm asking how can you say for sure it's his play style which makes him perform so well in GotMs and not his skill? How do you know that if he all of a sudden becomes a peacemonger he'll perform worse and will get beaten by his competitors?

Just keep in mind that for whatever competitive element a game offers (here: GOTM) there will always be a style you may call cookiecutter, and it will be superior to other approaches - for now.

First of all, superiority isn't the same as cookie cutter. Second, see few post above. I don't deny that there is no perfect balance. Civ games ever since the first release favored warmongers. It's not exactly a secret. However, I find the current state of Civ5 to be the most balanced in terms of war vs peace in the series. And no matter how some may feel about that, it's great.

 

[pkf]

You're completely missing the point. I do not offer any comparison. I'm asking how can you say for sure it's his play style which makes him perform so well in GotMs and not his skill? How do you know that if he all of a sudden becomes a peacemonger he'll perform worse and will get beaten by his competitors?

Not really. My whole point is/was that DoW/lump sum will grant the fastest finish times in GOTM. It has nothing to do with tommy in particular, he was an example I used and it was never about his skill.

How do I know for sure? Because I look at the results and writeups of the fastest finish times. And I've tried it myself. And DoW/lump sum was fastest every time, except for the deity GOTM.

Anyways, pointless really, since you will tell me now that this is nothing new and I will have to reconsider my choice of forum arguments.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Anyways, pointless really

At least we agree on that.

 

[Grendeldef]

Mirrored east vs west map - there is a small ocean in between players (with a middle coastal line), no ruins, barbs, CS - so no very early wars but midgame people can go war route aswell.
Think thats a very "fair" setting with just the one problem that host gets the wonders same turn built.

Kinda fun and same time relaxing setting for me.

I'm not surprised you cometitive as you are enjoyed these settings at all. But the vast majority won't, I believe. Civ and gaming in general is not all about competition and testing skills under super restrictive rules.

Well, I'm hardly a majority but it doesn't seem attractive to me either..
With those settings the inevitable question that arises is 'why play civ at all?' I assume there're more suitable strategy games for the military aspect of the game or if not then chess seems like an excellent option. Could be (almost) just me but I fail to see the point of playing a game while leaving three quarters of the essential mechanics out. It's like being at home but never going downstairs or garden and perhaps leaving few rooms unused - a house just wouldn't seem like the best of available options.

 

[jeespoks]

Well, I'm hardly a majority but it doesn't seem attractive to me either..
With those settings the inevitable question that arises is 'why play civ at all?' I assume there're more suitable strategy games for the military aspect of the game or if not then chess seems like an excellent option. Could be (almost) just me but I fail to see the point of playing a game while leaving three quarters of the essential mechanics out. It's like being at home but never going downstairs or garden and perhaps leaving few rooms unused - a house just wouldn't seem like the best of available options.

Well said I wouldn't be too excited about this setting either. I'd rather play Chess or Panzer General then. In fact, CiV is one of the few videogames I've enjoyed playing in single player mode. Yes, it has its annoyances but still the sp experience is pretty good overall. I'd like to play multiplayer also but since I can usually spend only around 15-45 minutes to my CiV "sessions", and rarely without any disturbances, I've not been able to try mp properly.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Well, I'm hardly a majority but it doesn't seem attractive to me either..
With those settings the inevitable question that arises is 'why play civ at all?' I assume there're more suitable strategy games for the military aspect of the game or if not then chess seems like an excellent option. Could be (almost) just me but I fail to see the point of playing a game while leaving three quarters of the essential mechanics out. It's like being at home but never going downstairs or garden and perhaps leaving few rooms unused - a house just wouldn't seem like the best of available options.

Well, for me MP was mainly a war game, so many aspects indeed were left out. I've watched some Civ5 MP videos and I'm surprised, to be honest, at how guys tech up and turtle and how others let them to. So, I guess, it doesn't have to be all war. And for some it will be. At least there is enough flexibility and everyone can pick settings that he/she likes under both MP and SP.

 

[Huntyadown]

Just played possibly the worst game ever and after that I'm done with Deity. It has completely ruined the fun of this game for me.

Around turn 125 everything is going fine. I had taken Istanbul with some crossbows and was nicely working towards public schooling with 6 cities ( 2 were Ohttoman).

All of the sudden Celts conquer India and the very next turn I get a DoW from The Celts and Harun at the same time, and from that point on there was no making peace. I hadn't done anything to piss either of them off, and my military Strength was not far behind and I was equal or ahead Tech wise. At one point neither one would even take 2k gold + gold + cotton + 30 gpt. This turned into a million years war. At this point almost every turn I was trying to get the Dutch to go to war with either of them and he wouldn't do it even for all my gold, plus gold and cotton, plus Istanbul! So as Harun starts marching into Istanbul, I sell it to the Dutch for everything he's got and we sign a RA as well. After about 50 turns of easily fighting off the Celts in the north while Harun is finishing off Spain, all of the Sudden Mr. Dutch that won't go to war with anyone decides to join in on the virtual gang bang going on in my territory. This was around turn 175 or so. Maybe less.

At this point happiness is a problem, almost dipping into double digits because Harun has swallowed up every City State.

This lead to a few things happening that made me realize how horrible Deity is.

1) The Computer can Ignore Unit Movement restrictions when moving by/around hostile units. Which is absolute .

2) An Infantry (The actually infantry unit not the class of Infantry) inside a Great Citadel can literally hold off any attack by the most powerful/leading computer player indefinitely, not to mention watching him kill 6, yes 6, enemy war bombers single handedly in one turn. The A.I. is horrible.

3) The computer does not give two shits about the other computers. As Harun begins building space parts, The Celts and the Dutch couldn't give two shits in the world about stopping him. The entire game the Celts and Harun and the Dutch never went to war once. And believe me I attempted many times to bribe them into it. Even before they DoW me.

4) The Computer can coordinate an attack with their C.S. Allies, basically tripling their attacking Strength, which is once again absolute .

It's pretty clear that Deity is a game of Patterns and every game is follow the same pattern, until just gets irrational.

Edit: It is just extremely frustrating, because after the double DoW there was literally nothing I could do. I had out teched the Celts and beat everyone to bombers and then infantry, but I couldn't push into anything because of the pincer that is created by the starting point. The game shouldn't be over at turn 125 but it was, because The Dutch wouldn't fight anyone, and the Celts and Arabia wouldn't make peace for anything.

 

[Old Peter]

Just played possibly the worst game ever and after that I'm done with Deity. It has completely ruined the fun of this game for me.

Around turn 125 everything is going fine. I had taken Istanbul with some crossbows and was nicely working towards public schooling with 6 cities ( 2 were Ohttoman).

All of the sudden Celts conquer India and the very next turn I get a DoW from The Celts and Harun at the same time, and from that point on there was no making peace. I hadn't done anything to piss either of them off, and my military Strength was not far behind and I was equal or ahead Tech wise. At one point neither one would even take 2k gold + gold + cotton + 30 gpt. This turned into a million years war. At this point almost every turn I was trying to get the Dutch to go to war with either of them and he wouldn't do it even for all my gold, plus gold and cotton, plus Istanbul! So as Harun starts marching into Istanbul, I sell it to the Dutch for everything he's got and we sign a RA as well. After about 50 turns of easily fighting off the Celts in the north while Harun is finishing off Spain, all of the Sudden Mr. Dutch that won't go to war with anyone decides to join in on the virtual gang bang going on in my territory. This was around turn 175 or so. Maybe less.

At this point happiness is a problem, almost dipping into double digits because Harun has swallowed up every City State.

This lead to a few things happening that made me realize how horrible Deity is.

1) The Computer can Ignore Unit Movement restrictions when moving by/around hostile units. Which is absolute .

2) An Infantry (The actually infantry unit not the class of Infantry) inside a Great Citadel can literally hold off any attack by the most powerful/leading computer player indefinitely, not to mention watching him kill 6, yes 6, enemy war bombers single handedly in one turn. The A.I. is horrible.

3) The computer does not give two shits about the other computers. As Harun begins building space parts, The Celts and the Dutch couldn't give two shits in the world about stopping him. The entire game the Celts and Harun and the Dutch never went to war once. And believe me I attempted many times to bribe them into it. Even before they DoW me.

4) The Computer can coordinate an attack with their C.S. Allies, basically tripling their attacking Strength, which is once again absolute .

It's pretty clear that Deity is a game of Patterns and every game is follow the same pattern, until just gets irrational.

Edit: It is just extremely frustrating, because after the double DoW there was literally nothing I could do. I had out teched the Celts and beat everyone to bombers and then infantry, but I couldn't push into anything because of the pincer that is created by the starting point. The game shouldn't be over at turn 125 but it was, because The Dutch wouldn't fight anyone, and the Celts and Arabia wouldn't make peace for anything.

If you are equal in tech and has gold, what is the problem? You just need to learn some basic military strategies in the game.

Place citadels and forts (rough terrain rox) in the tough flanks (Arabia?). Then just conquer Celts or such.

Maybe you have to sell your newly conquered Istanbul to get better defence, but that is no problem either since you will receive a lot of gold.

All that you described is what makes the game and diety so fun

 

[Huntyadown]

If you are equal in tech and has gold, what is the problem? You just need to learn some basic military strategies in the game.

Place citadels and forts (rough terrain rox) in the tough flanks (Arabia?). Then just conquer Celts or such.

Maybe you have to sell your newly conquered Istanbul to get better defence, but that is no problem either since you will receive a lot of gold.

All that you described is what makes the game and diety so fun

Yeah I admit I've never really used the Citadels much until this last game, and they were insanely good. They were really the only reason I was able to hold off for so long. I've actually never used forts. Maybe I'll try that.

Thing is though Arabia wasn't the military problem. The Celts in the north were allied with Jakarta and had conquered India and Valetta. It was literally just a flow of War Infantry into my north. Bombers are amazing though I've seen. I was actually able to get a couple of the bombers to have +3 to land units as well as air repair and double attack. It's amazing that they can one shot artillery.

But like I said I had 4 CS also pushing into me from the south and east plus Dutch. I couldn't get enough units to push into the celts without losing the south.

I guess it just pissed me off that the Dutch and Celts didn't give two shits about Arabia winning, all they cared about was taking me out... Which just isn't very realistic at all.

 

[soprof]

You pick Diety.
AI wins.

Where is the problem?

I can only agree it sucks that AI's don't try to interfere with someone winning. They have to became much more agressive after few spaceship parts or if someone else is close to any kind of victory.

 

[Grendeldef]

I can only agree it sucks that AI's don't try to interfere with someone winning. They have to became much more agressive after few spaceship parts or if someone else is close to any kind of victory.

One of the annoyances in the game but on the other hand it's logical and probably working as intended - there's only one AI and it's purpose of existence is to prevent human winning and how many civs it's has for that task is up to the settings. The AI civs are not individuals but a single entity and at occasionally nukes starts flying when one puts some spaceship parts together which is a reason why I build my Sputnik in one turn.

I am sidetracking here into the memory lane again but somewhat related to this is the OB issue which is illogical & highly annoying. AI with itself will sign OB whenever it's possible - no reservations while human has to be not hostile, generally not a biggie but few exceptions.
When next to annihilation AI should always give OB as part of a peace deal and when two eternally rivaling civs make the x(th) 10 turn peace in a game how came they have mutual OB - it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Light Cleric]

I am sidetracking here into the memory lane again but somewhat related to this is the OB issue which is illogical & highly annoying. AI with itself will sign OB whenever it's possible - no reservations while human has to be not hostile, generally not a biggie but few exceptions.
When next to annihilation AI should always give OB as part of a peace deal and when two eternally rivaling civs make the x(th) 10 turn peace in a game how came they have mutual OB - it just doesn't make any sense.

"When possible"? How about "even when NOT possible"? Like when a civ makes peace and its units don't get kicked out which is impossible; even if you took an Embassy in peace and immediately came back for Borders, your units would have been kicked out at some point.

 

[AE_]

Just found these deity challenges and have completed my first by winning a diplo victory. I had a very peaceful game, where I had one early war with india to steal 2 workers, and a war with the celts that started around turn 50. I failed my first attempt when the celts DOWed me with their swordsmen, but I reloaded some turns and convinced india to join the fight, which saved my ass.

After India whiped out the celts I was firends with almost everybody the entire game. I had 3 RAs and constantly bribed arabia to declare war on others. I'm a bit dissapointed that I had to replay some turns in order to win, but very happy with the sub 200 win.

Thanks for setting this up, now it is time for challenge 12!

Spoiler :

 

[Grendeldef]

"When possible"? How about "even when NOT possible"? Like when a civ makes peace and its units don't get kicked out which is impossible; even if you took an Embassy in peace and immediately came back for Borders, your units would have been kicked out at some point.

Woot ? You make me look like an optimist here which makes me officially but to the point - I always hoped that I wasn't alone with my annoyance as occasionally it gives huge tactical advantage to AI.