Deity Challenge #13 - The Dutch

[The Pilgrim]

One of few G&K civs we haven't tried yet, so it's about time.


Unique ability: Dutch East India Company - Retains 50% of the benefits from a Luxury Resource if your last copy of it is traded away.

Unique unit: Sea Beggar - Naval Unit that specializes in attacking coastal cities to earn gold and capturing enemy ships. Replaces privateer.

Unique improvement: Polder - +3 per improved tile. Can be built after researching Guilds on Marshes and Flood Plains.


Game Settings: standard speed, standard size, standard everything.
Map type:

Spoiler :

Inland sea. Personally I love this map script and it's been a while since the last time I played it, so you're stuck with it.

Gori the Grey, you better play this and you better win this!


Required DLC: G&K only.


Starting location:

Special request: for the sake of fellow-civvers, please, use spoilers tags!


Good luck everybody! We'll need it.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Thank you, Pilgrim. I"ll get started in a bit.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Turn 76. I think.

Spoiler :

To sum it up elegantly - nuthouse.
I'm not feeling so well today, so I played in autopilot mode, but I'm alive and that gives me hope.
I went Tradition. Settled on hill 1E, second city on one of the copper tiles to the north, 3rd towards the Mayans for silver and truffles. After DC12 stress I was thinking about quite and peaceful game. Long story short: Genghis swallowed up all three CS between us pre t40, Pacal killed Marrakesh before we met, Isabella killed Jakarta and one more CS, which one I don't remember atm. After finishing off CS, Mongols knocked on my door and forced me to rush buy walls instead of 4th settler. Writing goes to rest, Construction online. When I started to counter push, Mayans joined the party and forced me to buy another walls. Theo, kind soul, tried to help in her awkward AI'ish way, sniped Monaco, but also let me regroup, so I guess I can't complain too much. I took Lisbon recently, decided to keep it, since I don't have 4th city and not sure that I will anytime soon. Libraries are almost done, NC is next. Will try to liberate La Venta, get something for peace and take a proper care of Pacal. He's a bigger threat, Genghis is a goner. So much for my chill out in a coffee shop plan.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Gori the Grey, you better play this and you better win this!

Play, yes. Win, probably not.

Let me elaborate on why I asked (in the DC 12 thread) for this G+K only challenge, a request with which Pilgrim obliged. I don't have the other DLC, but I'd really like to play one of these Deity challenges. I can almost always win on Immortal and have never won on Deity (since G&K; I won several times on vanilla).

I thought I'd post a running commentary on my strategy, and you good deity players could help me step my game up a notch.

So now let me give this a try.

 

[Unresolved]

I think I'll give this a try tomorrow. Haven't played the Dutch in a long time.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Spoiler :

My scout just got to a portion of the map to the east of where the original settler spawned and I've hit a grey region that I can't enter into. I assumed this was some graphics glitch, so I went to the technical section, and someone there seems to report that certain map types just have an edge to the map (I've never got such a map; I always choose random). Could someone confirm that this is a map type [not what map type; I didn't want to know what map type and I've looked away during my load screens] and not some kind of graphical glitch? Thanks.

 

[Deau]

@Gori

Yes, Inland Sea (just like Great Plains and quite a few others) aren't "round" that is they have limits not only north and south but as well east and west.

"Random" maps, if I recall, only use the baseline 4 maps pangaea/archipelago/continents/fractal which don't have bounds to east/west

So you can keep playing the game this is normal!

 

[Gori the Grey]

Thanks, Deau. Never played as Dutch. Never played on this kind of map. Never won on deity.

Full speed ahead!

 

[Gori the Grey]

Spoiler :

In this shot, I'm nine turns in. I've played ahead to turn 39, but this is the first spot regarding which I wanted the perspective of more advanced players. You can see how much I've explored. I lucked out and met Vatican City and (two turns from now) La Venta before anyone else, so, without building a shrine, I was actually the first to found a pantheon!

I chose Fertility Rites. I didn't see anything in what I've explored so far that would make anything else a better choice.

Also, I went with Liberty. I pretty much always do. I've read Tabarnak's four-city tradition opening, but never tried it. I count on the free settler from Collective Rule. At this point, I feel I've got the space for four cities (I'll later learn things are a bit tighter), but the main place I want to claim is the copper to the NE.

I'll watch what others do, but if you want to give direct feedback, that would be great.

My policy and pantheon choices.

 

[Grendeldef]

Spoiler :

Had my reservations about the map. Downloaded. Was a bit suspicious about the map. Hated it. Actually started. Hated it. Continued. Hated it and a pattern is forming. DoWed Theo for existing. Explored. Hated the map even more. Scout found a mountain graphics bug. Started getting irritated. Made more coffee. Back on hating the map. Theo offers peace which I take as leaves more resources for me to hate the map. Genghis conquers nearby CS which is starting to compete my hate with the map. 1st scout dies to the map bug. I just hate the map. 2nd is scout is stuck because he can't swim and is afraid to enter the fog. I starting to think that this may not be my favourite map type. Theo wants DoF, now we can both hate the map & the Mongols. I think I'll start a war with Genghis soon. On my way to his cities I can stomp on the map which, btw, I don't like. I keep going since I've yet to complete a game with William which reminds me that I haven't finish this sort of maps because I don't like'em. I'll continue since I wanna finish with the Dutch, hating continues without extra ensentives but I'll take break of playing, the hating part goes on on it's own. I need more coffee.

I'm only @T50 so nothing relevant has actually happened yet but, this may come as surprise to you folks, I don't like maps that are flat and even worse are those which end on a land tile. I just takes too much away from starters. Last time I played any of such more than few turns was back in vanilla just to see how untouchable Pachacuti was in his own territory - extremely.

 

[tommynt]

maps which map ends dont look ok for singleplayer play for me.

Even when I try play them I allways just want do it multiplayer - kill em all style - and thats a bit too easy somehow

 

[jeespoks]

How big is this inland sea here? Maybe only thing that interests me in Dutch are the Beggars. I wonder if you can make any use of them in this map? The Dutch could be pretty good on water map where you might be able to get luxes for trade fast and take full advantage of their UA earlier.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Play, yes. Win, probably not.

Let me elaborate on why I asked (in the DC 12 thread) for this G+K only challenge, a request with which Pilgrim obliged. I don't have the other DLC, but I'd really like to play one of these Deity challenges. I can almost always win on Immortal and have never won on Deity (since G&K; I won several times on vanilla).

I thought I'd post a running commentary on my strategy, and you good deity players could help me step my game up a notch.

I'm just kidding. I'm glad you joined and I hope you'll enjoy this. The more people can play, the better, it's good to alternate the settings.
I'm not deity player myself. Sometimes I have a good roll and do fine, sometimes succeed against the odds (again, not due to skill ) and sometimes I fall on my face. So I'm also trying to improve and learn from others. That's the whole point. Good luck!

Also, I went with Liberty. I pretty much always do. I've read Tabarnak's four-city tradition opening, but never tried it.

You really should try it. Not necessarily in this game, if you went Liberty, just stick to it. But Tradition is much easier to leverage now, it suits almost every map, while Liberty is more situational.

Spoiler :

I just hate the map.

See? Should have let Tommy host. I play pangaeas almost exclusively and it's getting boring. I was debating between this and continents and decided to leave the continents for future. And I must admit, your determination despite the hate is very impressive.

maps which map ends dont look ok for singleplayer play for me.

Even when I try play them I allways just want do it multiplayer - kill em all style - and thats a bit too easy somehow

That's true. And that's why I wanted to play this one differently, doesn't seem to happen though. But there is some fun in 'linearity' of such maps anyways. You're just stuck with whatever you rolled opposed to unlimited choices you have in open maps. Although unlimited choices and deity is an oxymoron.

 

[The Pilgrim]

How big is this inland sea here? Maybe only thing that interests me in Dutch are the Beggars. I wonder if you can make any use of them in this map? The Dutch could be pretty good on water map where you might be able to get luxes for trade fast and take full advantage of their UA earlier.

You can take the advantage of their UA early on this particular map and sea is big enough for using the beggars. Although I'm not sure it's worth it. But, AI usually does have several coastal cities.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Update to turn 60 and diplomacy question.

Spoiler :

The map is okay for me. (But since I don't know what a winning deity map looks like, that means nothing.) What I hate most are maps where I get DOWed by turn 20, so all of my early production has to go to fighting a war. I'm to turn 60 without having been DOWed. Genghis is busy with the city states north of me. I realize I'm next, but I've been able to build an army while not entirely neglecting all other building, and CB is coming in in 5 turns and NC in 11, maybe 9 or 10 with a chop on the furs. The UA has already been useful. I've sold gems and copper to Genghis, without hitting happiness problems (also 3 horses).

At turn 50 Egypt asked me to war against Pachal, and I did. Figured it would keep Pachal busy.

That's the extent of my diplomatic skill: trading and joining in wars that would seem to benefit me. You all talk about pitting civs against each other. They'll never do that for me for any amount of money. I would like to get Theodora to fight Genghis. She's denounced him. Should I denounce him too? Would that grease the skids for getting her to fight? I basically never denounce anybody.

(And, for what it's worth, I'm not going to here. I'm not asking for advice for this game. I'm going to play this game the way I generally do and report it to you all. So, around turn 50, I thought about denouncing Genghis. Should I have?)

 

[The Pilgrim]

Spoiler :

That's the extent of my diplomatic skill: trading and joining in wars that would seem to benefit me. You all talk about pitting civs against each other. They'll never do that for me for any amount of money. I would like to get Theodora to fight Genghis. She's denounced him. Should I denounce him too? Would that grease the skids for getting her to fight? I basically never denounce anybody.

(And, for what it's worth, I'm not going to here. I'm not asking for advice for this game. I'm going to play this game the way I generally do and report it to you all. So, around turn 50, I thought about denouncing Genghis. Should I have?)

Spoiler :

I denounce to get positive modifiers with other leaders. In this particular case, however, I don't think it matters. Theo will be at some point at war with him and so will you, fighting common enemy will give you the positive modifier. She offered me a DoF rather quickly. Although I declined, since she might be next on my list after Pacal and backstabbing a friend won't help the diplo situation for sure.
Try to bribe Genghis to DoW her. Usually, the one with bigger army or more aggressive flavor is easier to convince.

 

[The Pilgrim]

derp...

 

[Grendeldef]

I'm glad you joined and I hope you'll enjoy this. The more people can play, the better, it's good to alternate the settings.

This and the fact that host used spoilers as specifically requested for not giving up any extra information so come on guys, respect it & use spoilers - those are free and the game isn't even 24h old yet.

See? Should have let Tommy host. I play pangaeas almost exclusively and it's getting boring. I was debating between this and continents and decided to leave the continents for future. And I must admit, your determination despite the hate is very impressive.

Woot, are you suggesting that I might have some deeply hidden antipathy towards this game in particular ? Such a thought couldn't be further my from mind but I admit that if it wasn't a DC I'd skipped it

Pangaeas seem to be loved by the majority so I'm in a minority and prefer continents but I play so few games these days that 2 in row on any map tips the balance. It's not that I'm happy with the continents script but at least it gives a chance for all aspects of the game to be involved in the next 200+ turns. Terra is actually my favourite and it got a lot better in G6K as AI actually settles on new world. Terra also provides excellent ground for self-set rules which still keep core of the game intact. And I just like the exploring part.

 

[The Pilgrim]

This and the fact that host used spoilers as specifically requested for not giving up any extra information so come on guys, respect it & use spoilers - those are free and the game isn't even 24h old yet.

Yes, please. Do use spoilers! I'll add this to OP.

Woot, are you suggesting that I might have some deeply hidden antipathy towards this game in particular ? Such a thought couldn't be further my from mind but I admit that if it wasn't a DC I'd skipped it

Really? I couldn't have guessed!
Well, finally I have a reason to swing my bat. Life is beautiful again!

Pangaeas seem to be loved by the majority so I'm in a minority and prefer continents but I play so few games these days that 2 in row on any map tips the balance. It's not that I'm happy with the continents script but at least it gives a chance for all aspects of the game to be involved in the next 200+ turns. Terra is actually my favourite and it got a lot better in G6K as AI actually settles on new world. Terra also provides excellent ground for self-set rules which still keep core of the game intact. And I just like the exploring part.

I don't think I've ever played Terra, so I'd be glad to try it in one of the upcoming challenges.

 

[Grendeldef]

I don't think I've ever played Terra, so I'd be glad to try it in one of the upcoming challenges.

I'll keep on rolling Gandhi on Terra hopefully for a successful map for a dc #xx the alternative motive being that Gandhi & Ramesses are the vanilla ones that I haven't won a game yet and I should remove this stain from my CV. Due to the clock addon I always use I can't do achievements but that's beside the point.