Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)
- Thread starter Lain
- Start date
Without stone I'd almost never go for Masonry early, even with an IND leader. You need 110
just to pay back the cost of Masonry. Then chopping takes a lot of worker turns, and you're chopping some forests that would otherwise go into libraries. During this time you're not expanding and not building cottages, and Writing date is delayed by a lot. Plus there's always a chance that Mids are gone on T60 and you get nothing in return. I don't like it.
just to pay back the cost of Masonry. Then chopping takes a lot of worker turns, and you're chopping some forests that would otherwise go into libraries. During this time you're not expanding and not building cottages, and Writing date is delayed by a lot. Plus there's always a chance that Mids are gone on T60 and you get nothing in return. I don't like it.
Fippy
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Well i like this setup (even if missing GLH), shows some nice IND power.
Imo we are draining the fun out of those maps if not using traits, i would always go masonry here.
You can get lucky here and there, including wonder dates, but what's the point in playing if not trying some stuff.
Imo we are draining the fun out of those maps if not using traits, i would always go masonry here.
You can get lucky here and there, including wonder dates, but what's the point in playing if not trying some stuff.
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Fippy
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In the end i got GLH and 300+ gold from Pyras, makes for let's say relaxed playing afterwards.
Seeing those goodies west now, would be an easy map but i guess that's not what we are looking for here..
..and i wonder anyways, what are we actually looking for now in this thread.
Seeing those goodies west now, would be an easy map but i guess that's not what we are looking for here..
..and i wonder anyways, what are we actually looking for now in this thread.
Playing around with wonders and traits is certainly fun (and in this case more powerful than the "standard" path), but I don't feel like doing so would teach me much about the game -- I want to be able to win every iso map. And by that I don't mean winning every single game, which is impossible, but being able to get a domination victory on any iso map, no matter how crappy the island is. And while wonders make this particular game easier, I don't think it helps me much in that direction.
Of course we have different views of things and I respect that
(Oh and I didn't know about the goodies on T0 -- only checked for iso and not OP starting location)
Of course we have different views of things and I respect that
(Oh and I didn't know about the goodies on T0 -- only checked for iso and not OP starting location)
Depends on the "we". I'm here to improve as a player while having fun and interesting discussions, and it has worked very well since this thread was created. What are you looking for?
Fippy
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Well in this case we should get an "universal" Optics save on a hard map, something that all who are interested use from this point, and then start comparing some games after that point (different military approaches and so on).
I doubt it's useful playing around with stuff until Optics by now, we should know how that works, and it's also boring and wasting time.
I dun believe you fully on this sorry, you were "disgusted" with Iso maps at some point until you even uninstalled Civ.
Neither do i believe Lain when he says he's having so much fun with those maps, and then starts getting a bit depressed.
I doubt it's useful playing around with stuff until Optics by now, we should know how that works, and it's also boring and wasting time.
I dun believe you fully on this sorry, you were "disgusted" with Iso maps at some point until you even uninstalled Civ.
Neither do i believe Lain when he says he's having so much fun with those maps, and then starts getting a bit depressed.
TBH between April and September I didn't reach T150 in a single game, and didn't make it to 1AD in most games. Just couldn't find the motivation to play. Since then I've finished a couple of games and have no problem playing to the Renaissance era, motivation's only getting better and better
It happens that I need a break after a tough map, but I've never really been disgusted by Civ. I did uninstall it at some point because I was beginning to lose concentration in games, and because I had some RL stuff to get together. But I'm certainly having a lot of interest (and usually fun aswell) in playing those maps.
I'm not in Lain's head, but to me he looks very motivated to play these maps -- maybe he simply overreacts a bit when he loses.
Anyway, we're not here to discuss psychology, are we?
I could roll a (fairly) crappy map and play it to Optics, would you play on from there?
I do still believe that the Pre-Optics phase is the most important and that most mistakes come from here, but practising the war phase is certainly useful aswell.
I'm with Fippy on this one. It's partly why I stopped participating in the thread and something I've been wanting to say for a while. Rather than trying to make the best of a random isolated start this thread has become obsessed with finding a set path to isolation victory. That's not how the game works. Making arbitrary decisions like no Pyramids with stone etc makes little sense to me. There will always be something to leverage. Where do you draw the line? No failgold whatsoever? No traits? No drafting? No getting lucky with trades?
IMO just play every map as well as you can. Take advantage of the single luxury, the multiple health resources, the marble, the charismatic trait, the whatever. That's how you learn and get better -- even if it's an easy game. If you do that then you will also beat the hardest maps when the time comes, because you will have noticed patterns on what works well and what does not. Forcing the worst possible conditions will only limit your playstyle.
That said I might play the infamous Mao game this week as it's been haunting Lain for so long. And a large reason for that is that everything goes -- just make the best of the start generated.
IMO just play every map as well as you can. Take advantage of the single luxury, the multiple health resources, the marble, the charismatic trait, the whatever. That's how you learn and get better -- even if it's an easy game. If you do that then you will also beat the hardest maps when the time comes, because you will have noticed patterns on what works well and what does not. Forcing the worst possible conditions will only limit your playstyle.
That said I might play the infamous Mao game this week as it's been haunting Lain for so long. And a large reason for that is that everything goes -- just make the best of the start generated.
Hmm you have a point.. I tend to get obsessed with winning given the worst possible conditions -- or at least the worst possible land. But when I end up winning one of these games, it's usually because of great trades & favorable AI setup -- which means that the game with crap land was not necessarily harder than one with great land. Maybe I have to change my mindset.
The main reason why I like playing with crap land is that it makes for a much more straightforward game. Otoh great land is so much harder to make the most out of, especially when you add in stuff like Mids or Marble. That's why I haven't played the Mao map yet -- it's a map that's rich with opportunities but is a PITA to optimize, especially as nasty barbs add a luck factor that I don't like. Gotta get over it.
Another thing is that I find it much more motivating to play a game where I'm fighting to win, and not to get a fancy win date. I actually find it pretty hard to keep playing a game that you're 95% sure to win after having played to T50, not sure how you deal with this.
If I had one question to ask you, Rusten, I'd ask how you manage to remain motivated and play a game to the end after noticing the mistakes you've made earlier (even small mistakes) -- that's the reason why I drop 99% of my games, because I don't find any appeal to finish a game that is not "good". I know that's wrong, but I just can't get over it.
Oh and I'm ofc interested to see you play the Mao game -- looking forward to some saves to dig in
The main reason why I like playing with crap land is that it makes for a much more straightforward game. Otoh great land is so much harder to make the most out of, especially when you add in stuff like Mids or Marble. That's why I haven't played the Mao map yet -- it's a map that's rich with opportunities but is a PITA to optimize, especially as nasty barbs add a luck factor that I don't like. Gotta get over it.
Another thing is that I find it much more motivating to play a game where I'm fighting to win, and not to get a fancy win date. I actually find it pretty hard to keep playing a game that you're 95% sure to win after having played to T50, not sure how you deal with this.
If I had one question to ask you, Rusten, I'd ask how you manage to remain motivated and play a game to the end after noticing the mistakes you've made earlier (even small mistakes) -- that's the reason why I drop 99% of my games, because I don't find any appeal to finish a game that is not "good". I know that's wrong, but I just can't get over it.
Oh and I'm ofc interested to see you play the Mao game -- looking forward to some saves to dig in
Lain
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Well, I kind of agree. Of course the idea was to beat the hardest conditions and then, by default, it should be possible to win anything. But I guess there is nothing wrong with using all the resources given by the map to the fullest.
I am still trying to deduce some guide lines though. Make theories about what works and what doesn't instead of extrapolating from single cases. I mean I had this Mansa game recently with 1 AD Astro and totally killed it. Then I play the Mao game and am completely out of my depth. So... what is the best way towards progress?
Currently I am leaning towards playing any start, good or not, and using everything I can. Maybe because I lost the last three games and have to get back into shape. And even a start with quadruple gold poses some questions @1000 AD (production of army) and I am trying to work on the mid-to-late-game, so... I should be able to learn something about it either way, if I just play far enough and commit to games. Which means playing till the end.
So please don't abandon me/us. @Rusten and @Fippy. I want to learn with whatever method you deem fit.
Yay! My problem with that map doesn't come from refusal of using marble though. It comes from lack of understanding some basic principles. So I really want to see how we use what's there in the best way. I don't want a fixed guide to win. (But a 1000 pages book with applicable theory and exemplary cases would be nice.)
I am still trying to deduce some guide lines though. Make theories about what works and what doesn't instead of extrapolating from single cases. I mean I had this Mansa game recently with 1 AD Astro and totally killed it. Then I play the Mao game and am completely out of my depth. So... what is the best way towards progress?
Currently I am leaning towards playing any start, good or not, and using everything I can. Maybe because I lost the last three games and have to get back into shape. And even a start with quadruple gold poses some questions @1000 AD (production of army) and I am trying to work on the mid-to-late-game, so... I should be able to learn something about it either way, if I just play far enough and commit to games. Which means playing till the end.
So please don't abandon me/us
. @Rusten and @Fippy. I want to learn with whatever method you deem fit.Rusten said:
Yay! My problem with that map doesn't come from refusal of using marble though. It comes from lack of understanding some basic principles. So I really want to see how we use what's there in the best way. I don't want a fixed guide to win. (But a 1000 pages book with applicable theory and exemplary cases would be nice.)
Fippy
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No problem, i like that we sorted this topic out now
Yup the Mao map is very difficult with using marble (we had no objections against that).
Getting over mistakes is certainly difficult (but possible) to learn, motivation problems come from taking ourselves a bit too serious while playing Civ.
Playing gotm and sgotm helped me getting over that, when you make a very bad mistake that affects your whole team and cannot be reloaded, those you are making in games here look harmless. And then you have broken that circle, and put it in better relation
(also works with multiplayer in other games, but for Civ (s)gotm would be my best example)
Yup the Mao map is very difficult with using marble (we had no objections against that).
Getting over mistakes is certainly difficult (but possible) to learn, motivation problems come from taking ourselves a bit too serious while playing Civ.
Playing gotm and sgotm helped me getting over that, when you make a very bad mistake that affects your whole team and cannot be reloaded, those you are making in games here look harmless. And then you have broken that circle, and put it in better relation
(also works with multiplayer in other games, but for Civ (s)gotm would be my best example)
Izuul
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I wouldn't say the Mao map was too rich with opportunities. Unless you mean all of the different ways to possibly play it. The "good" land (river area) has no food and is hard to defend early making it both difficult to secure early on and slow to get up and running (bad combo obviously).
Certainly not too rich in opportunities, but it has marble and lots of land. EXP trait is also very strong for this map: low food and lots of forests but you have cheap granaries and workers. It certainly isn't obvious to figure out a good strategy, especially with the barbs, but I'm sure this map has a strong potential, even if Optics & Astro come later than they usually do.
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