[Deity Shadow] Making the jump to Deity :D

[krikav]

Nonono, absolutely not gardens!
You don't want to tech math either and not currency either.
It's very very rare to tech math in iso. Optics beeline is super common.
And thats without GLH! With GLH the enormeous benefits of astro become just ridiculus.

I suggest you go to optics with one additional city, getting the total up to 4. And the spot I suggest is that PH 4N of the piggies since that spot can start to mature loads of cottages that will serve you throughout the game.

Once optics is in, you can settle 2-3 more cities while caravels are cruising toward the AIs and you do alot of tech trading and while you wait for GScientists to bulb astro.
After astro you can REX like a mad dog!

Btw, keep those two forest that capital and third city are sharing, those two are nice since they give health in both cities.

 

[Ocre307]

Not playing a turnset tonight because I'm still mulling over how I want to proceed

Y'all have given me some stuff to think about I've never left math until after the AD years start, but an Astro beeline makes sense with my current setup.

Kaitzilla mentioned planning out my moves ahead of time before checking this thread.
Well, my plan was definitely something along the lines of "settle the whole continent, then get contacts up when I can afterward", which I think is what he wanted me to do. So that's where my thoughts were.

Just trying to consider which plan is better. Or a mix! They both have their merits.

 

[5tephen]

Whilst your deliberating, if you've not seen it, this thread would be well worth a read:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-isolation-workshop-stan-norm-fractal-nh-ne.612863/

I think it’s a fascinating thread with the thoughts and learning experiences of some really high level players on deity isolation. It might help with your beeline astro vs REX dilemma.

 

[krikav]

Sorry if I come across like an ass, but I really don't see merits to both sides here. And I pride myself of constantly trying to see multiple different exotic options in all maps.


There are few rare maps where it makes sense to really hog down and gain full dominance of your island before making contact.

Some key factors that are usually present on maps where I make that assessment are the following:
* Strong Buro cap
* Abundant land
* 1-2 offshore islands for better domestic trade routes.
* Abundant health and happy resources, ensuring large cities.

Of these factors, none are really present in this map. Well... possibly "abundant land", but not really.
And in addition to the map itself not being suited for anything but quick contact you have additionally skewed the map heavily in favour of making quick contact and establishing trade routes since you built GLH.
What exacly would have been the point of building GLH, if you where not to get traderoutes? The cool cutscene?


Here are 3 maps where I assess that you could make a case for taking the unorthodox path and just developing your empire in isolation, postponing contact:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...rm-fractal-nh-ne.612863/page-10#post-14781785
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...b-bts-edition-chapter-lxxiv-hammurabi.449080/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-202-churchil-of-england.639632/


If you really want to make sure that you have strong developed cities in time for some early attack, well.. Go with 5, 6 or even 7 cities then. You are ORG after all and it's possible you can afford 7 or 8 cities and not delay optics too much. GLH ensuring +2 commerce in coastal cities helps too.
But "Settle the whole island and then get contact when I can afterwards" is wrong. You will needlessly throw you empire down into a commerce darkage for aeons by going that route.
You might get abit stronger food or production base by an earlier REX, but the cost will be off the chart, trading 10-20 or even 30 beakers for each hammer since you will miss out on so many tech trades, turns of astro-traderoutes and the benefits of resource trades.

First impulse is to try to claim the whole island with only chariots.

This quote I intrepret as a way of handling barbarians since you have no copper and no archery.
It's about preventing disaster by having barb axes spawning and ruining your day and it's more about spawnbusting rather than settling.
But I might be wrong, @Kaitzilla have taught me quite alot and continues to do so.

 

[Fippy]

Well first a gems city should be settled, they are jungled but close.
Gives 3rd GLH route too. IW can come before or after writing, depending on if cities are ready to actually build (or rather whip) libraries.
If they are not (and they look small ) IW first makes sense.

Pyras 150% failgold should ideally be created somewhere.
1 fogbuster will soon be needed south of stone city against barb galleys ploping up close, or it's fish will not be long for this world.

Those are plenty tasks, other cities are unrealistic for now cos it would awaken barbs.
Chariots are too weak, by now Spears can be around and they can even lose to Archers.

 

[Kaitzilla]

What an interesting divergence of opinions.

So pyra fail gold, 4 cities (/w gems city), and race to Astro (3 great scientists) is the best solution here?


I see 3 city spots down south that make me itch wanting to settle.

Perhaps there will be some luck with iron and the idea to create more than 4 cities be revisited later when there are more resources to entertain such an idea.


Pyramid fail gold is quite attractive right now and there is no telling when the AI might complete mids.


Barb galleys

 

[krikav]

Well... both @Fippy and @Kaitzilla make good points about the gems.
I'm reluctant to settling those since they lack food, but what can you do?

And for those, IW before writing might make sense.
It's also entierly possible to completely scrap any plans for academy. I think getting 3 GSci will be problematic here with the GMerch pollution.
Will require some luck!

I might have gone abit overboard with 4 cities, make them 5 or 6 then.
I just think that having GLH and then delaying astro traderoutes for the sake of settling cities that there won't be any competition for anyway abit earlier.
Once optics is in, you can settle every marginal city on the continent to your hearts content.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Well... both @Fippy and @Kaitzilla make good points about the gems.
I'm reluctant to settling those since they lack food, but what can you do?

And for those, IW before writing might make sense.
It's also entierly possible to completely scrap any plans for academy. I think getting 3 GSci will be problematic here with the GMerch pollution.
Will require some luck!

I might have gone abit overboard with 4 cities, make them 5 or 6 then.
I just think that having GLH and then delaying astro traderoutes for the sake of settling cities that there won't be any competition for anyway abit earlier.
Once optics is in, you can settle every marginal city on the continent to your hearts content.

If the gem city is settled 3W1N of the capital, it can grow on that lake farm while also unlocking trade routes for the rest of the cities.
Build a granary, chop one forest, and eventually whip the granary complete at size 2.

I think I really like the fast gem city, iron working, pyramids, and pyramid fail gold idea now.

Then again...
Perhaps the forest chop into the capital for Pyramids 40 before settling the city might be better?
At size 2 without a granary, the city can also do what it needs to do.

 

[Ocre307]

With Pyramids at 250%, yeah building them would be good. Maybe in New York, at least while waiting for Writing to come in.

I think that settles it. Gem city is the next priority Though horse city would be really nice too, just so that I'm not completely screwed if a barb shows up with a shiny axe.

It'll take a while for Iron Working anyway.... I guess horses and then gems is the way to go. Not sure if I have anywhere pressing to go after that.


Three GS = 2 for Astro, 1 for academy right? I wonder if academy in this capital is even that good of an idea. Not a lot of happy headroom for cottages.

 

[krikav]

I think you will have alot of difficulty getting 3 GSci before around T140 which is a sort of ballpark benchmark date for astro.
You need 3 cities ready to run 2 scientists every turn at T90 for that to happen.

(300 / 6 = 50, 140-50 = T90)

Here you have GMerch pollution and you will likely get GEng pollution too if you finish pyramids.
3 GSci is probably highly unrealistic, and then you have to forgo academy.

And as you say, it's not a good capital for academy anyway.

 

[Kaitzilla]

With Pyramids at 250%, yeah building them would be good. Maybe in New York, at least while waiting for Writing to come in.

I think that settles it. Gem city is the next priority Though horse city would be really nice too, just so that I'm not completely screwed if a barb shows up with a shiny axe.

It'll take a while for Iron Working anyway.... I guess horses and then gems is the way to go. Not sure if I have anywhere pressing to go after that.


Three GS = 2 for Astro, 1 for academy right? I wonder if academy in this capital is even that good of an idea. Not a lot of happy headroom for cottages.

I've been looking over the Barb mechanics, and I now think the horse city idea might itself be risky.

There is a slight danger that the warrior moving onto horse might uncover a Barb and die.

Also, the pasture improvement itself might attract a Barb to pillage it.
That very action would break the 3 warrior wall.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/barbarians.324961/

I've changed my mind on recommending horse city.

Improving the tiles the 3 warriors are standing on would also provoke the barbs to attack, but chopping would be ok.


Since the current 3 warriors can all take 1 step back and maintain the wall, the current situation hoping no axe wanders north might be safest.


There aren't really enough to get more than gem city if pyramids needs so much focus.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ahem, whatever you decide to do Ocre, know that Deity isolation is even harder than regular deity.

We are all rooting for you to win.

 

[Fippy]

Yup it's difficult, but we can learn the most from such maps
An earlier gems city will benefit from already having enuf size to work both.

I have some really bad experiences with chariots in Iso, almost like barbs plan logically and bring only Spears now.
Axes often take longer, i think by now no new barbs will spawn (they spawnbust areas themselves). So a random Axe approaching the warrior defense line would be veeery unlucky.

All being said i cannot look at your save, but it feels like cities are not ready yet for adventures south.
While double gems would be a really nice boost after IW.

 

[Ocre307]

I've been looking over the Barb mechanics, and I now think the horse city idea might itself be risky.

Ah, I see. Makes sense - thanks for the link!

Gems city sounds good then.

Ahem, whatever you decide to do Ocre, know that Deity isolation is even harder than regular deity.

We are all rooting for you to win.

Thank you very much! I did realize earlier that it would be funny if my first Deity win was isolated

 

[Ocre307]

Turnset T70-T90
T71: GLH built!

Not a lot going on on these turns, just getting toward Iron Working, workers building cottages. Trying to put extra into the Pyramids whenever possible for a nice gold payout later.

T78: The Apostolic Palace is built! (Christianity was only founded 12 turns ago. Industrious civ, probably?) Its religion is Judaism.
T81: Philadelphia (Gems city) is founded:

Spoiler :

T82: Iron Working discovered! And...

Spoiler :

Iron on the tile that was already mined near Boston!

Spoiler :

I should connect it as soon as possible to get a couple axes out
Another source is also visible within the BFC of the clams-fish city... That makes that spot more attractive.

Spoiler Southern city plans :

I wonder how soon I should try and settle these sites? I suppose Great Scientists are a bigger priority (The next tech of course is Writing.)

T83: The Pyramids built in a far away land. Ah well, worth a shot.
T84: Got around 270 fail from the Pyramids. Super efficient wealth-building, with Industrious and stone! We can run 100% research for turns on end now.

T87: Writing finished. Next up is Metal Casting, in accordance with the Optics beeline. Due in 15 turns though That'll go down once libraries are built and Scientists are hired, though.
(I think cheap forges are more important than harbors? Feel free to correct me though )

T88: Temple of Artemis built. Are these wonders falling really quickly, or is this typical for Deity? Never paid much attention.
T89: Confucianism founded.

T90: I'm quite far from krikav's suggested goal of 3 libraries built by this date. I guess I will have to make due with 2 Great Scientists, then?

Spoiler :

End of turnset

 

[krikav]

Yeah, winning iso as a first would be super nice! GO @Ocre307 !
Taking a step back... can you start to formulate a vision for the path toward victory? What strong points do you have to levrage here on this map? How could you lure a win out of this map efficiently?


And some quick feedback for your post:

T88 ToAr feels late.

You can do a rough calculation for how many beakers you need to get to optics, divide that with your current BPT and then you got how many turns to optics, multiply that with your uppkeep and you know if you have enough gold.
If you are far short from that, it might make sense to save the failgold and get some libraries down first, so that you can siphon that commerce through the 1.25% multiplier.

I think mining that desert hill was a mistake, mining hills is not something you should do really, and desert hills you can ignore for thousands of years yet.
A farm 1S of your capitals piggies would have been far better.
But it was nice to pop iron there.

Yeah, 2 scientists are good, make sure you spawn them fast enough so that capital which is ticking forward that GMerchant stays behind.
Give capital some cottages to work instead. Likely you should have prioritzed laying down some cottages earlier, but easy to say now, you where busy chopping pyramids.


When to settle more cities... Well, you can do it at other times ofcourse, but one veyr good pivot point to settle more cities is just around optics.
After you have reached optics you have gotten through a commerce bottleneck and once caravels are moving they are moving toward alot of resource trades.
Also, GPP points are ticking toward an astro bulb.
So after optics, the value of further commerce goes down drastically, at that pivot point you want to turn your attention toward growth and production.
Prior to reaching optics, you will likely be hitting toward the happy-cap, a nice thing to do with that surplus food is to build settlers slowly in preparation for optics.
A super neat trick is to whip settlers with maximum overflow and then the extra food will give you even more overflow hammers, and with a single chop (if you still have any) that overflow can finish caravels one turn after optics discovery.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Turnset T70-T90
T71: GLH built!

Not a lot going on on these turns, just getting toward Iron Working, workers building cottages. Trying to put extra into the Pyramids whenever possible for a nice gold payout later.

T78: The Apostolic Palace is built! (Christianity was only founded 12 turns ago. Industrious civ, probably?) Its religion is Judaism.
T81: Philadelphia (Gems city) is founded:

Spoiler :

T82: Iron Working discovered! And...

Spoiler :

Iron on the tile that was already mined near Boston!

Spoiler :

I should connect it as soon as possible to get a couple axes out
Another source is also visible within the BFC of the clams-fish city... That makes that spot more attractive.

Spoiler Southern city plans :

I wonder how soon I should try and settle these sites? I suppose Great Scientists are a bigger priority (The next tech of course is Writing.)

T83: The Pyramids built in a far away land. Ah well, worth a shot.
T84: Got around 270 fail from the Pyramids. Super efficient wealth-building, with Industrious and stone! We can run 100% research for turns on end now.

T87: Writing finished. Next up is Metal Casting, in accordance with the Optics beeline. Due in 15 turns though That'll go down once libraries are built and Scientists are hired, though.
(I think cheap forges are more important than harbors? Feel free to correct me though )

T88: Temple of Artemis built. Are these wonders falling really quickly, or is this typical for Deity? Never paid much attention.
T89: Confucianism founded.

T90: I'm quite far from krikav's suggested goal of 3 libraries built by this date. I guess I will have to make due with 2 Great Scientists, then?

Spoiler :

End of turnset

Iron, cool
I'll post some thoughts later tonight.

Here is the bulbing thread to look over.
https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/references/great-people-tech-preferences/

 

[Ocre307]

Yeah, winning iso as a first would be super nice! GO @Ocre307 !

Thanks!

Taking a step back... can you start to formulate a vision for the path toward victory?

Hmm... Well, we are on our own continent, so it's pretty hard to be invaded unless if we fall majorly behind in naval tech. So that's good news. Similarly - the AI is very bad at defending lots of coastal cities simultaneously, so a big fleet of Battleships to bombard cities and Marines to attack off the boats is great. (maybe that isn't possible on Deity though with the scaling bonuses they get? 30% production increase in the Modern era seems pretty hard to overcome).

Could just do a standard land war too. Rifles + cannons, or... I think I saw Lain use artillery once? I'm bad at warfare though. That was part of the reason I made this thread! But y'all are here

Besides military, we could maybe consider UN victory. It's easier to make people like you when you meet them post-Currency - gift 40g to Toku and you get OB with him! And diplomatic alliances have already formed so it's easier to play that game.

I don't have any delusions about beating the AI in a space race here

mining hills is not something you should do really

Oh? Do top players not mine resourceless hills? Where does production come from then? Just whipping? I'm used to building lots of mines

Thanks also for your other advices krikav

 

[Kaitzilla]

Oh? Do top players not mine resourceless hills? Where does production come from then? Just whipping? I'm used to building lots of mines

Most of the top players avoid mines and build only windmills on hills for extra .
Perhaps a dedicated wonder city will have mines, but it is whipping for the most part.

Spoiler :

I see New York doesn't have a Granary yet.

Hmm, advice advice
The Warrior north of New York fogbusting can find another job now I think.
Border pops have things covered now.


The next settler will probably come from the capital after Library since it can't really run scientists.
The northern city needs to run 2 scientists by around T100 to keep the capital from spawning a Great Merchant.
New York needs to produce a Granary (probably?), Library, Trireme once Metal Casting is complete (barb galleys will be a problem eventually I'd say), and a workboat for clams before it can run scientists.

Bulbing Optics will be impossible with Math and Alphabet clogging things up.
Might have to slow tech Optics, contact some other AI, and trade for Math + Alpha to open up the Astronomy double bulb.
As long as Meditation is avoided, it might be possible to trade for Code of Laws and then run Caste and 5 Scientists in the northern city if the pigs from capital is stolen.

100% on Metal Casting I'd say.
I think a trireme to protect all those fishing boats is more important than trying to save and then push it into the Library multipliers.


I'm really uncertain how much the island should try to be settled before Optics is teched.
The clam city at least looks good for the health and huge food supply.
Deity isolation isn't something I played a lot.

 

[Ocre307]

Most of the top players avoid mines and build only windmills on hills for extra .
...it is whipping for the most part.

Very interesting. That seems far too taxing on happiness. I guess even as much as I use the whip, it's not enough.

Bulbing Optics will be impossible with Math and Alphabet clogging things up.
Might have to slow tech Optics, contact some other AI, and trade for Math + Alpha to open up the Astronomy double bulb.

That makes sense to me. It will take a long time though I am not sure how I'll keep up in tech, or even be remotely competitive. Making very good use of trades and GLH, I guess

Deity isolation isn't something I played a lot.

I wonder why!