Deity Toku

[Snaaty]

well, concerning the archeryisbadthingy and leaves you in a position where you cant rush and win the game...

did a quickplay up to 500 bc, along the following lines:

1. get archery quick (research was agri, hunting, ah, archery)
2. get a blocking city towards monty on a hill
3. get baracks in all cities (3 cities around 1800 bc)... ...with nothing else to build, not THAT difficult
3. get 4-5 archers into the blocking city asap (pre 1500 BC)

-> i didnt get declared, leaving me only with the problem of not having settling space nor research, nor production... ...but with horses nearby

solution:
ignoring everything but horsback riding and doing a ha rush on justi (i didnt have pottery, writing, bronzeworking... ...overated they are anyways)... ...same with production, who needs production, when he has a whip (didnt build a single cottage, farmed everything... ...not having pottery made it an easy choice...)

...

my only techtrade in this game, for backfilling some needed techs (writing + bronze working in 925 BC):
View attachment 286534
mainly bronze was important for whipping and getting some trees chopped to speed up the warfare preps a bit...

declaring on justi 775 BC (8 turns after getting hbr in):
View attachment 286535

taking his capital (after taking 2 other cities, including a holy city), only another 8 turns later (525 BC):
View attachment 286536

i guess 10 turns of peace are worth getting alpha for free...
View attachment 286537

...

justi has 2 cities left. overall losses in this war were 3 chariots and 3 has. 2 of justies cities had city walls btw. has are often underrated i guess...

...

edith adds:

i call it a day. games won, with 12 has + 2 charriots + some archers left + the money in the bank + alpha from justi + the new cities (3 so far, 2 will be added in 10 turns) that leaves us with 9 cities and in decent techshape to trade for the last missing early techs

 

[Mylene]

i call it a day. games won

If only it was that easy on Deity

 

[Snaaty]

did another quick test:

declaring war on monty myself 1480 BC (only inbetween save i had left)

-> result was only that the ha rush on justi was delayed 3 turns.
-> monty shows up with a decent sized army (around 8 untis) but doesnt take any city in the initial attack.

--> settling a junker city in the jungle and gifting it to monty ends the war 900 bc

View attachment 286551

View attachment 286552

(killed some 10nish units and lost 2 archers)

...

to summ things up:

having a decent force of archers for defense, keeps you alive and that´s all you need. you dont have to win the war some idiot is waging on you, you just have to stop him from taking a city from you untill you have time to plug down some giveaway city and get back to peace.

sure, the hammers invested in 4-6 archers (100 - 150 hammers) and the settler you need to buy back peace (another 100 hammers) DO slow you down, but better then beeing luck dependend id say.

and it is still possible to keep up under normal circumstances. see my ha rush on justi. you will neither have the biggest score nor will you bee able to compete in hof games going archery, but you do play "save"

 

[GKey]

Well, that's impressive, Snaaty.
Still, I would like to see anyone put himself into winning position after being declared by Monty on turn 53 like in AZ's video. That would be really prove that this map is luck independent.

Played my game a bit. Looks good. Report is coming.

 

[Mylene]

It's not really about that thou, if you know what is most likely coming you can counter it.
After all you are playing vs. a machine here.
Like in the funny crazy map Gwaja made "for me" lol, if you know the map you can beat it.
If you play it blind, you have no chance.

 

[Ichabod]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=323521

This is a SG played here at the forums at deity difficulty where Montezuma declared war on the players at ~1500BC and they still managed to defend against it and win the game.

It was a very difficult map. Dirk1302 should know, since he was on the team.

Maybe it can add something to the discussion.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

i call it a day. games won, with 12 has + 2 charriots + some archers left + the money in the bank + alpha from justi + the new cities (3 so far, 2 will be added in 10 turns) that leaves us with 9 cities and in decent techshape to trade for the last missing early techs

Games won? Give me a break, I've gotten that far on this map many times and the game is far from won. Lots of bad things can happen, some AI could get a vassal and screw the entire map, DOW you while you're trying to lib, etc....

Also you're pretty far behind in tech too. Catching up and winning lib is going to be quite a feat.

Did you choke Justin? If not you got lucky with him not getting metal. He has iron up there to the north.

I'm playing another game where I oracled HBR and HA rushed Justin. I'm right about to Cuir rush Shaka. Games been really dicy because of all the bad relations and nearly losing lib. I think I've got it though, I'll try to post the first vid some time tonight.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=323521

This is a SG played here at the forums at deity difficulty where Montezuma declared war on the players at ~1500BC and they still managed to defend against it and win the game.

It was a very difficult map. Dirk1302 should know, since he was on the team.

Maybe it can add something to the discussion.

The problem is not the DOW, the problem is defending against it and getting decent land to win the game with. AND avoiding a DOW from one of the other warmongers.

In that game there is plenty of land and a Monte DOW doesn't mean too much, although 1500 BC is early and you have to be somewhat ready.

But the real concern on this map is "what is everyone else doing while I'm bogged down fighting Monte".

 

[Duckweed]

Nice to see you back, Dirk.

It seems that almost everyone think early DOW in deity in unwinnable. I have some questions with a faint voice.

1. Are 4 ~ 5 archers in a city on hill enough to defend against 2000BC deity stack?
2. Are you able to have 4 to 5 archers at that time?
3. Is deity OCC winnable?

For players don't like that unpredictable war check, here's one of the most difficult deity game I have ever played. You will get specific DOW almost for sure in different period.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322761

For players don't like the early DOW, BOTM40 is a deity game, which is a fair stage for comparison and competition.

 

[GKey]

Here we go. 960AD-1110AD (turns 158-171), some busy turns :

Spoiler :

960AD Declare on Sury. Monty is willing to declare on him too now:

There we go! Genghis is no longer friendly towards Monty thx to this -1 "you declared on our friend".

Sury's army is in Shaka's territory nowhere near my borders.

980AD: Capture first city (-phant and cat), and here is Monty's first stack:

War drums sound!

He chose right guy to declare! Mylene.

Proves that distance is most significant factor. Genghis went for closest target despite him being pleased
with him and cautious with me. Not sure how it works in bribes though, chipper?

Same turn: GS in Kyoto, bulb PP - 2 turns to completion.
Sury got another wonder in his capital I hope will be mine soon. Seriously? Only 1 Longbow defending?

1000AD: 2nd GS in Gaul, asleep till I get Gunpowder.

1010AD: Printing Press in --> Gunpowder.

1020AD: GM in Constantinople, best city for trade mission seems to be Ulundi, but it is under the siege.

1050AD:
Monty asks to declare on Genghis, I accept with regret.
Conduct trade mission in Ulundi for 1700 gold, slider 100% Gunpowder in 2.

Siege on Yasodharapura and Monty's stuck moves in, Sury's army might meet him there.

Finally I can give some credit to Toku: CR+Drill Samurai is among the best units in game. Get Yasodharapura
(-2 cats, -2 phants).

Nice city!

Btw, Sury got Statue of Zeus in Angkor Wat, War Weariness kicks in.

1060AD: Gunpowder in, bulb Chemistry - 4 turns to finish. Means 5 turns to cannons. Shaka trying get away:

Hindu is marginal religion and Shaka can abuse AP to his liking. Knowing that I've spread Hindu in my largest cities
long ago. lets see it will work.

1070AD:

Yes! Just enough to block.

Sury suicides his stuck on Monty!

1100AD: Chemistry in --> Lib 1 turn.

1110AD:

Whipping phase. Revolt into Slavery/Theocracy. Upgrade few trebs into cannons.

13 turns, but long report really.

Questions:
None
Hardly can imagine what could be done better. Looks like win already. Should I finish this?

 

[GKey]

With all respect to my teachers (and you were, despite you did not know that )
1880BC DoW with this:

On this map looks incurable even if you manage to fend it.

And by the way Dirk, that's from that epic game:

If there's still room in schedule i'd be interested. Like Rusten i don't like best ball, i think you should play a cookbook if you like discussion/voting on saves. It's not that i don't like that but it's really a different and more time consuming format imo. There's often ways to defend early game and if we really get declared on pre 1500 bc we can always restart.

 

[Snaaty]

...

It seems that almost everyone think early DOW in deity in unwinnable. I have some questions with a faint voice.

1. Are 4 ~ 5 archers in a city on hill enough to defend against 2000BC deity stack?
2. Are you able to have 4 to 5 archers at that time?
3. Is deity OCC winnable?

...

just my personal opinion (after playing quite some aw games):

1. yes (even 3 will do usually for the first attack)
2. no (around 1600 BC you will have them in a blocking city, 2000 BC only in the capital)
3. dont think so without somewhat beefed settings

...

an early dow is annoying, but wont kill you in most cases, if you are prepared. and best is to be always prepared, so archery is a must (i usually go for it in my games)

...

having said this, the picture gkey posts isnt a normal case (again in my opinion). its death even if you try to be prepared. i dont see a way to fend it off.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Just to clarify, noone here is saying that an early DOW on deity can't be fought off ( or at least I'm not ).

What I'm saying is you cannot expand on this map ( enough to win ) and fight off a 1500 BC Monte DOW. 4 archers isn't going to cut it either, try 8, maybe more if you take some losses.

And let's not forget he'll probably go for you're capitol, which will make you're capitol next to useless for a while. I made a hilled city close to his territory one game and he just marched past it

 

[Dirk1302]

@AZ, I looked at Snaaty's 525 BC save and that's seems like a won game to me, relatively easy too. Generally if you don't get surprised early on and have enough land subsequently (academy in Constantinopel too) you can win the game. Snaaty has proved so multiple times in the past. My earlier save is ~ comparable with this one i think and i also dismissed that as won.

Sure you can have runaway ais (doesn't look that way on this map though) but you can almost always deal with that. More than one of my games featured runaway ais, they're so weak/erratic in modern times that there's almost always a counter.

 

[Dirk1302]

Good to see you too Duckweed

I gave it another try too. This time i pre-programmed the game so that Monty would go wheoohrn against me the moment he connected metals. Turns out to be 2280 BC. Actual declaration 1840 BC.





I definitely need the ivory so i was definitely going to settle that city. So I had a choice between the south western city which would have been a good block on hill. No clam then however. Gold city is the alternative. That gold will be handy to get things going + capital is on a hill so i chose that option. It will take some time to develop that gold city further though

I had 4 protective archers in capital, as you can see 5 Monty units didn't make much of a dent, may have had a lucky roll but from AW games i know that those archers hold out for a long time as long as they're undamaged and there's no siege in play. Protective is such a strong trait in situations like this.

This answers Duckweed's Q1 i think. Q2, 4 archers in 2000 BC is possible but i don't think you'll have them generally as you're building settlers/workers.Q3 Deity OCC AW is not winnable for me at least, I think that you'll need very rigged settings. Didn't Dualdoc do a game like that.

Plan from here, a few extra archers also in case some Monty troops go my south eastern city. Then library->scientists and workers. No granary in cap and no slavery, whipping is too costly since there's not enough food.

 

[Snaaty]

@ dirk:
can you post the modified start? the one where monty is pre-programmed to declare. i would like to try out the game with monty declaring

...

@ az:
i have been playing mainly aw games lately. so im quite sure the above played game is a win if playing conservatively, meaning ignoring the lib race totally and go berserk with numbers = backing the has up with elepults and going for monty or shaka right after justi is done. that should take out at least 1 more ai, maybe even 2, giving us the land do fight with numbers, no matter how fast the ai techs. nothing the ai can do against elepults around 1 ad if playing the diplo right (bribing some wars and such so you dont get backstabbed)

 

[AbsoluteZero]

@ dirk:
@ az:
i have been playing mainly aw games lately. so im quite sure the above played game is a win if playing conservatively, meaning ignoring the lib race totally and go berserk with numbers = backing the has up with elepults and going for monty or shaka right after justi is done. that should take out at least 1 more ai, maybe even 2, giving us the land do fight with numbers, no matter how fast the ai techs. nothing the ai can do against elepults around 1 ad if playing the diplo right (bribing some wars and such so you dont get backstabbed)

It's just a bit early to be calling a game done is all. I looked at your save and while you aren't in an unwinnable position, you are bleeding gold at anything above a 0% slider and no currency or CoL. You don't have the tech lead to trade for much gold when you do get currency either. If you want to start a new war this situation will get even worse.

Lots of things could screw you diplomatically. Monte could make peace with Zara and decide to go after you. Shaka could go after you when you take out Justin. Sury might even go for you.

You can take out 1 more AI but at what date? 500 AD? 1000 AD? You'll give the AI's time to reach grenadeers or so. You have to catch up sometime, and then you have to worry about the backstab while you're trying to play catch-up.

Bribe AI's into war, but with what? Philo? Might not even be enough, but you won't be the first to it anyhow.

I just don't see how someone can take out 1 AI and call it a game. Maybe if you had like 1/3 of the land and were at least even in tech.

Late game screwjobs happen frequently, like that AI that you bribed on a lot of times and doesn't share your religion, now he's the tech leader with 2 vassals, and guess who his only target is?



I finally won domination on this map myself at 1650 AD. Turns out it was a cakewalk after I won lib, slow teching for everyone else and lots of wars. I just got lucky Monte didn't backstab this time, and Shaka declared on Sury despite looking like he was going to declare on me. I'll start uploading in a bit.

 

[Mylene]

Men...you chit chat more than we do, my head!
I agree with @AZ (again ^^), you cannot call a game won after a HA rush on a soft AI like Justi.
If that would be true you could win ~80% of all Deity games before they even really started, something around that.

Looks like a real challenge would be to forbid just one thing: bribing AIs into war, and let them decide only by themselves.
Now who creates this map for me?

 

[GKey]

@Snaaty. While it's really impressive what you have achieved in your 525BC save, it certainly is not a win yet.

I had pretty good situation in
300AD, just to see how fast it turns to be desperate in
960AD. At least tech situation was decent and with some diplo manipulations I manage it to start look win again in
1110AD.

Far from being piece of cake map, that's for sure. I call it hardest challenge I have ever had already and if I pull a win here, it going to be the best game I have ever had.

Going on till 1350AD (turn 195):

Spoiler :

1120AD: Join Monty's stack near Hariharalaya, I could use that incense.
Whip cannons everywhere but HE city. It pumps cannons every 2nd turn.

Teching to rifling.
Cannons + CR/Drill Samurais FTW!
1170AD:

Zero losses.
Sign peace with Genghis, let him concentrate on Monty.
Move army onto Angkor Wat.

Cannons = Power!

1230AD: Angkor Wat

Some bad news same turn:

At war with both Genghis and Sury, Monty still maintain tech lead!

Move onto Lalibela. Want gift it to Justinian.

1290AD: Get Lalibela. Justinian does not willing to take it!
Sury gives up.

Pull army to Monty's borders.

Trade for Nationalism, MT.

1350AD: Rifling in.

Monty got rifles too, but it will not save you!
Plan is make it as fast as possible. Will attack 3 cities at once:

Small stack:

Medium stack:

Main stack:

Main stack will take Texcoco and continue to Tenochtitlan with some good wonders (GLib, UoS, more).
Small and medium stacks will take Tlaxcala and Tzintzuntzen, and proceed to Teotihuacan.
It's a holy city with some huge Budda shrine. I think Monty get his insane tech rate thx to it.

Speaking of Monty's tech rate:

Monty got steam power! How close is he to infantry?!

Hope it's not too late. Declaring this turn.

Questions: What are mechanics behind gifting cities? Why Justinian did not want take Lalibela(It is right at his borders, but did not even appear in trade list)?

@Mylene: I think No Tech Brokering will do the job. At least you can't bribe AI's that easily.

 

[CaF]

Men...you chit chat more than we do, my head!

you cannot imagine how I love these men. you can have a normal discussion at this forum worth 200 pages without any flaming. It's amazing

@topic:

OK, i believe now that defending early and then winning eventually is doable. Not that I ever lost trust in you guys, I'm just not good enough for Deity myself Yet.

 

[GKey]

@CaF Wish I had your faith. I am still positive that fending 1880BC DoW like in AZ's video and winning is impossible on this map. Would like to see if someone proves I am wrong though.

Not to mention that without previous knowledge of map it's unthinkable, unless you are lucky like me and not get DoWed at all.